Tolle Criticism

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby Sighclone » Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:47 am

Welcome, Mindbridge!! I am a 62-year old male and volunteer in a Kindergarten classroom. Painbodies are an "insubstantial phantom that cannot prevail against the power of our presence." (PON p. 38) Children cannot see themselves, they can only see us. We are their mirror. Sure, that puts large responsibility on teachers and parents...since time immemorial. But it also allows our presence to become their presence. Tantrums are pure painbody, in complete control. I will stand over a child in tantrum mode and say, sometimes loudly, "Lily, there is a better way...you do not have to do this." Does it always work? Nope. In the Oprah webinar for 4/2/08, he stated that he believed the painbody was encoded into human DNA!

I come from a Transactional Analysis background in dealing with egoic identities (which is most all of us before the age of 30, according to Eckhart. (Oprah webinar 4/21/08)) I try to stay in the Adult ego state most of the time with kids in school. but sometimes we go all kid, like the time we took turns driving the ship (big steering wheel on a play structure) to the hippo zoo..."only hippos here...who wants to go?...you get to drive part way...sometimes the water is choppy...be careful...who can see the first hippo??? "

Art Linkletter found kids speaking from presence all the time. "But the emperor has no clothes" is pure presence.

We will enjoy your contributions!! You will find our topics vary across many disciplines - please browse at will. You can click on a member and view just posts from that member, by the way.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6183
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby domokato » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:12 am

Mindbridge wrote:But, you guys have reminded me that he would probably not want us defending him. That is not living in the present.


Yes, and being present is the best way to spread the light of consciousness :)

Welcome to the forum!
~housecat
User avatar
domokato
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:45 pm
Location: Bay Area, California

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby weopposedeception » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:15 am

Someone came out with a book titled "New earth-Old deception". Copied the cover from the Tolle book. The author depicts Tolle as a "dangerous new age influence". Obviously religion has severely warped this writers mind.
weopposedeception
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:06 am
Location: Arizona

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby heidi » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:54 pm

By using of the same cover and keywords the guy IMO deliberately caused brand confusion and made a few bucks. What a ploy! :)
Heidi
http://www.heidimayo.com
wonderment on the third wave
User avatar
heidi
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2703
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:37 am
Location: 42nd parallel, Massachusetts, USA

"New earth-Old deception"

Postby kiki » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:36 pm

It amazes me how desperate some people are to cling to fear based ideas when other ideas are presented that lie outside the boundaries they are familiar with. The author of that book, Richard Abanes, claims (as most "Christians" do) that "suffering, pain, and hurt is part of this life we live; we're not going to get away from it,...there is a day when suffering will stop...that is what Christians look forward to." In other words, you can't get away from suffering, pain, and hurt unless you are a Christian and follow its prescribed teachings. The relief from suffering, pain, and hurt can only happen at some future date when all the pieces are put aright by God in some glorified way. That kind of "magical thinking" keeps the story spinning and the story-teller on the treadmill.

What he doesn't grasp is that suffering can be transcended right now and he, and others of like mind, are too afraid to let go of their religiously inspired concepts to discover this for themselves. They'd rather cling to their suffering because that's easier than questioning their cherished beliefs. It's preferable to suffer and simultaneously believe that which will ensure continued suffering than to let everything go - this helps to define themselves as "Christian". In their eyes it's beyond the realm of possibility to end suffering and not believe as they do - that simply isn't possible, for if it was then what happens to the whole foundation of their belief system and self-identity? That's the threat they face and it's one too fraught with imagined peril to overcome. Fear has a way of holding one tight to itself.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---
Your donation will help keep us online.
User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 4370
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Re: "New earth-Old deception"

Postby Glycine » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Well said, Kiki!
Indeed - most religions are too rigid to see outside their set of beliefs.

For our mind - Question everything; Let go of everything.
Glycine
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:42 pm

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby randomguy » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:34 pm

"New earth-Old deception"


I visited the amazon.com review page for this book. There are a number of reviewers who described themselves as Chirstian and who rated the book low. Some of these reviewers described Tolle's message as a positive part of their faith and proclaimed the book, "New earth-Old deception", as having roots in hatefulness. I thought that was nice to see.

@kiki - well said!

I think the criticism on the cult recovery page might be explained in that brief section in ANE where Tolle explains how an ego can collapse and instead of inducing more present awareness, the ego can quickly reattach itself to a different set of ideals. I think I too might have hyper-skeptical egoic tendencies after becoming disillusioned from identification with a set of negative cult beliefs.

Those guys are seeking truth as much as I am I suppose. I'm happy Tolle's message passed my own skeptical ego filters (which have been plentiful)
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho
randomguy
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby coriolis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:27 pm

Webwanderer wrote:I read some of this and if you look through some of the existing threads here you will find many of the same criticisms. Same O same O. It's usually about how much money ET makes. Never mind the message, "let's kill the messenger if he makes more money than me." What a terrible waste of thought energy. I Think it stems from the accusors inability to see their own true nature that makes them label ET a charleton (or worse). The facts are however, that countless beings have gained clarity with the gentle direction of ET's pointers. Some more than others, but it's an ongoing process. Few people awake from the dream fully alert. Shaking off the cobwebbs often takes a few splashes of cold water.

Those who cannot yet see the truth of their own ego identification are just not quiet ready to let it go. They will when conditions are right.

WW


While it is bad to throw out the baby with the bath water, it is not exactly a good to hang on to the bath water by pretending it isn't there long after it's served it's purpose.
If ethics matter when it comes to other religious figures and in professions of other stripes why should Eckhart Tolle be declared immune from such concerns?
I'm not saying he is or he isn't dishonest.
I'm just saying that it's poor judgment to hide your head in the sand whenever an issue like this is brought up rather than admit that Tolle, being human like the rest of us, is just as likely to enjoy a life of material comfort as any of us are and to go for that brass ring when he sees it within reach.
And would it not even be consistent with his message to admit this fact rather than dismiss it outright as downright preposterous that he might actually want to make a very comfortable living peddling enlightenment when his actions show that he indeed does?

This "enshrine the guru" attitude is where most religions have gone astray by making such a celebrity out of persons that the practical message they were expressing becomes completely lost.
Tolle isn't special -- and that is a very good thing for which you should all be very thankful because, if you are, then you'll never have to worry about turning into a "cult of personality" as so often happens when some teacher shows up and the people who like his message also want to build up an image of him/her as effectively infallible.

Eckhart Tolle, in many ways, is just as out for number one as any common human being because.......Ta dahhhhhhh!----he is one.
Look deeply inside yourself and try to find yourself.
The ensuing failure is the true finding
---- Wu Hsin
User avatar
coriolis
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:51 pm

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby Sighclone » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:36 pm

Well said, coriolis. You comment:
And would it not even be consistent with his message to admit this fact rather than dismiss it outright as downright preposterous that he might actually want to make a very comfortable living peddling enlightenment when his actions show that he indeed does?


He was pleased when Oprah called him - actually said so in the intro to the first webinar. We all live in human form. Let's say Eckhart nets $1M per year. Would it not be grotesquely egoic to live in a $400/mo apartment and eat Top Ramen, donating the rest of his earnings to charity? This would announce powerfully to the world that he is not attached to material things. Would that action somehow validate his teachings? I do not think so. For me, it would be nurturing the "hair shirt" ego story.

There is another side: Adya says do not pursue enlightenment unless you will be perfectly content in two things (1) no one will ever know you are enlightened, and (2) you will work for 'Walmart' for the rest of your life. (He used some other retailer, which I forget). His point is that seeking attaboys or material wealth as a result of waking up will keep you from it.

The middle ground is pretty large...and easy to "not judge."

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6183
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby Onceler » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:30 pm

Who knew? All I need to do yet to become enlightened is get a job at Walmart! Thanks, Andy....an enlightened greeter....!
Be present, be pleasant.
User avatar
Onceler
 
Posts: 2203
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby James » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:21 pm

In keeping with Adya's comment that Andy mentioned. Tolle says something in one of his retreat recordings about how there was a downside of his notoriety. Before he became well known, he says he was very content to feel ordinary. Now lots of people frequently tell him he is special, which makes it more difficult to be ordinary; it is probably tempting for him.

Also there is nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of awakening which may include more prosperity, as long as there is no attachment to it. Eckhart was satisfied sitting on a park bench owning practically nothing. Paradoxically it is the detachment that actually manifests what is needed or is fulfilling, once the desire for it is gone. The idea of taking a vow of poverty has worked its way into some religions, equating material possessions with "wrongness"; this is a misunderstanding of some spiritual teachings. Whether one chooses to take a vow of poverty or not is their business and choice, but awakening does not really depend on it. There is nothing material that is separate and apart from the One expression of life. We don't need to give up possessions to awaken, we need to give up our attachments to things or concepts. We need to give up our erroneous beliefs.

J.
James
 
Posts: 983
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:06 pm

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:09 pm

coriolis wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:I read some of this and if you look through some of the existing threads here you will find many of the same criticisms. Same O same O. It's usually about how much money ET makes. Never mind the message, "let's kill the messenger if he makes more money than me." What a terrible waste of thought energy. I Think it stems from the accusors inability to see their own true nature that makes them label ET a charleton (or worse). The facts are however, that countless beings have gained clarity with the gentle direction of ET's pointers. Some more than others, but it's an ongoing process. Few people awake from the dream fully alert. Shaking off the cobwebbs often takes a few splashes of cold water.

Those who cannot yet see the truth of their own ego identification are just not quiet ready to let it go. They will when conditions are right.

WW

coriolis wrote:While it is bad to throw out the baby with the bath water, it is not exactly a good to hang on to the bath water by pretending it isn't there long after it's served it's purpose.


Coriolis, I appreciate you concern over the location of my head (in the sand), and there must be some truth to it as I really don't know what this means. I assume the baby is Tolle's teachings, but what is the bathwater, what is it's purpose in this context, and who is pretending what isn't there?

I certainly recognize that Tolle's efforts provides him an income, but I have no idea how he spends it, and I have no interest in being distracted from his message by things that do not affect me. I suppose if I lived in his ashram (does he even have one?) slaving away to support some fabulous lifestyle he may be living - some cause for concern may be warrented. But such is not the case for me, nor have I seen any evidence that anything like it exists. Even if such a condition were proven to be true, should I then discount the clarity I've gained by virtue of following his pointers?

My concern in adding to this thread is the degree to which some may be influanced by appealing to their ego's conditioned judgment on what type of lifestyle a teacher may hold. We've all seen the Rolex evangelists and their constant appeals for money that goes to their oppulent lifestyles, most of which comes from adoring followers on fixed incomes. It's not uncommon to view all teachers through that lens.

Anyone may speculate on Tolle's (or any other teacher's) motives as they wish. But speculation is not evidence of anything inappropriate. And there may be those who "enshrine the guru" but I doubt you will find it my posts. Tolle's message is what is of primary significance and is what I occasionally reference if I even bother to do that.

I'm just saying that it's poor judgment to hide your head in the sand whenever an issue like this is brought up rather than admit that Tolle, being human like the rest of us, is just as likely to enjoy a life of material comfort as any of us are and to go for that brass ring when he sees it within reach.


Is there something in my comments that suggest that Tolle doesn't live well, or that he doesn't engage the world on a material level, or that he is not a human being with similar challenges as the rest of us? That certainly is not my intent. And as to having one's head in the sand, is it not preferable to have a place where clear silence may be enjoyed, rather than to chase after Chicken Little while he speads concerns over imaginary events?

This "enshrine the guru" attitude is where most religions have gone astray by making such a celebrity out of persons that the practical message they were expressing becomes completely lost.
Tolle isn't special -- and that is a very good thing for which you should all be very thankful because, if you are, then you'll never have to worry about turning into a "cult of personality" as so often happens when some teacher shows up and the people who like his message also want to build up an image of him/her as effectively infallible.

Eckhart Tolle, in many ways, is just as out for number one as any common human being because.......Ta dahhhhhhh!----he is one.


This seems to be a strawman argument in that it presumes there is a significant movement to "enshrine" Tolle, or that he is somehow superior to the rest of us? Although some may occasionally fall into such a concept, if one actually follows the pointers that Tolle makes it doesn't lend itself to much guru worship.

Or maybe you are you suggesting that this website is an example of enshrinement? On the surface one my see it that way, but the many wise ones who post here are quick to dispell such thinking when it gains legs. We are pretty much about self-realization by one's own direct perspective. In truth, Tolle is no more relevant than the finger pointing at the moon.

WW
User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6307
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby pardes » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:52 pm

One of the draws to me about Eckhart Tolle was the fact that I have absolutely no interest in turning him into my "guru." The words he speaks warms and informs me but they seem delightfully free of needing to be attached to him with strings.

One of the advantages of living to 63 has been watching things coming home to roost. I was always a great appreciator from childhood and this trait seemed to infuriate people that the world was dark and people and things couldn't possibly be as sweet as my view of them.

Many years ago I knew a Zen teacher who struggled for enlightenment of being called "Roshi" that was defined for him by having it celebrated by others to make it real. So one day I bowed down to him with a grin and said, "Okay, you're enlightened." We were very good friends and I shared a humorous dream I had of him wearing robes that were too big for him like Mickey Mouse in the movie "Fantasia." I've visited with him a few times over the past decades and you know, he grew into his Roshi robe! The fit was perfect.

There is no need to assess, define, foster, predict, or wait for enlightenment. It seems to me that there is just that sweet interaction of being in the presence of the light within others. Glory Be.
User avatar
pardes
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:48 pm
Location: Delaware USA

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby Windrider » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:58 am

hahah recovering NOWist.. that is so funny
All the busy little creatures
Chasing out their destinies
Living in their pools
They soon forget about the sea...
User avatar
Windrider
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:27 am

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby pardes » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:43 am

Windrider wrote:hahah recovering NOWist.. that is so funny


I missed the connection of your comment...what does "recovering NOWist" mean?
User avatar
pardes
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:48 pm
Location: Delaware USA

PreviousNext

Return to General Eckhart Tolle Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests