Tolle Criticism

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.

Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby mikel » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:59 pm

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me


There is another interpretation to these words and that is as a message from consciousness to itself.

To come to the father is to come to know that your nature is this ever-present existence, which is unified and whole.

The way, the truth, father are words for something that cannot be objectified but can be known as the source of your experience which is happening this instant and is as alive and present now as it was 2 thousand years ago.

What Jesus was pointing to is here now, forever accessible and available and forever knowing, consciously or unconsciously.

In truth jesus is the "way of being" which is knowing itself as this presence in and of life.

I feel jesus is not refering to himself as a person but rather a way of being which unfolds an experiential truth about our existence.

I feel this more strongly when I go past for a moment my familliar way of looking at the world in terms of history, story, people, places and things. That is very much respected and acknowledged as an aspect of this experience, but this experience is not just limited to that.
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby Tony-S-Ma » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:27 pm

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me


This is one's being expresses itself as an integral part of ALL, the father. One's mind, emotion, body are connected to ALL through one's being. The awakening is one's being stops identifying with ( or focuses less on) one's mind, emotion, body and etc.
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby sikor » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:41 am

I have't read all posts in this topic but i think we shouldn't care, criticize those people. Under a certain set of beliefs and a certain circumstances anyone of us could be criticizing Tolle like this :D I believe you all know how it is to catch some idea with no real knowledge and understanding of it and cling onto it no matter what;)
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby samadhi » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:40 pm

To me the whole notion of the thread is amusing; the moment you start criticising Tolle, or anyone else...you've lost it. Gone out of presence and got stuck on the levels of form, abstraction and ego. By all means practise discernment, always! But the moment you lapse into criticism, you've lost it, whatever "it" is. Either the pointers and the teacher work for you or not (hence the discernment) but if not, just let it go and move on - criticism is wholly unnecessary. Before I get challenged on it - I'm laughing at the irony that this comment is a criticism in itself :lol:
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby karmarider » Fri May 01, 2009 2:50 am

Eckhart Tolle accidentally or spontaneously discovered Truth. He pointed to it. He got famous. He got rich.

Criticizing Tolle the man is as silly as blindly defending him. As a person he is no more important than anyone else. To mow him down is as silly as saying "I know Tolle wouldn't want me to defend him." Do you really need an external authority to tell you what to do or feel?

Tolle said be present. So be present. And possibly the first thing you will find in being present is the wonderful discovery that you are your own and final authority.
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby the key master » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:50 am

Conditioned thinking does not equal egoic thinking. Where were you on that one Eckhart???
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby the key master » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:01 am

So Im laying in bed wondering about Eckhart and Adya. They seem like good enough guys. But they misled this young flowering mind, and I wondered why.

In the case of Adya, or anyone who meditates and spends a lot of time "sitting in silence", he conditioned his mind to be silent. As Adya himself states, sit and stare at the wall long enough, and something is going to happen. Adya's mind may very well be conditioned to be silent most of the time. I'll throw Maharaj in this category as well. This gives the appearance to the mind that the cause of peace and stillness, the cause of detachment from thinking, is that there isn't thinking taking place. That ain't right. If Adya is indeed Jed McKenna though, at least he acknowledges being "monkey mind" most of the time.

Eckhart, on the other hand, seemingly had a spontaneous awakening. I had a similar experience to one he describes. But his thoughts stopped. Mine didn't. Again, same mistake to be had, that detachment from thinking stems from not thinking. Eckhart wisely teaches to accept what is. But the conceptual framework for his "ego" implicitly includes a thinking resistance variable. The variable is not making the clear distinction between conditioned thinking and egoic thinking. Conditioned thought perpetuates the sense of being the thinker, of identifying with the mind. That doesn't mean that because conditioned thinking is taking place, one is mind identified.

Im going to bed. With my monkey mind :D
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby karmarider » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:01 pm

the key master wrote:So Im laying in bed wondering about Eckhart and Adya. They seem like good enough guys. But they misled this young flowering mind, and I wondered why...


Did they? Each one of the awakened you mentioned has pointed out why we get misled. Awakening is about seeing beyond the story of me, but we quickly morph it into the story of advancing the me. We 'advance' the me through intellectual or spiritual clinging. We continue to accumulate and cling to concepts. The ego loves the seeking. The ego loves beautiful concepts of oneness and bliss, and it loves complicated theories of existence and various stages of consciousness and it loves to meditate and it loves to quote the "I" and pretend there is no "me" and all of the other nonsense. And when questioned, the ego defends its insanity by clinging to the belief that awakening is difficult.
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby surprise » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:25 pm

Webwanderer wrote: It's usually about how much money ET makes. Never mind the message, "let's kill the messenger if he makes more money than me." What a terrible waste of thought energy.
WW



heidi wrote:By using of the same cover and keywords the guy IMO deliberately caused brand confusion and made a few bucks. What a ploy! :)


Could sense a sort of similarities here :)
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby mukau » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:07 pm

And when questioned, the ego defends its insanity by clinging to the belief that awakening is difficult.


I like that part of ETs message (along with many others).

This is a great thread. I've found myself wondering why ET charges for Echart Tolle TV? Does he want that money? Does he need it? What would I do? What do I do?

Whatever thoughts I have or whatever criticisms I read, I feel wonderfully anchored by the direct personal experience of what I know to be true. Enlightenment isn't a long journey. Everything is fine in the now and my story isn't me. I find that very simple, empowering and reassuring - and unconnected to whatever ET does or doesn't do.
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby iamaskyewalker » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:07 am

I hope when I write my books on enlightenment I make lots of money, too. I am tired of being poor, and I am getting darn close to being enlightened.
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby Sighclone » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:34 am

Of course, we can only ever speak of our own experiences in states of consciousness. That said, Ramana has a little chart discriminating two levels of nirvikalpa samahdi: Kevala and Sahaja. It's associated with the date 13 March, 1936, and is #187 in Talks. In Kevala, the mind is "alive, sunk in Light," in Sahaja, the mind is "dead, resolved into the Self." He goes on to say:
The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness. When the ego, however, dominates it, it functions as the reasoning, thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind being not limited by the ego, has nothing searate from itself and is therefore only aware.


In my experience, thinking or not thinking is an option. Since it is a big ol' habit, it continues to be my default condition. But I experience Presence acting as both a background/foreground ambience. Sometimes it is very dominant and thoughts, sensory input, bodily awareness are either automatic or incidental. Sometimes I appear to be fully consumed by my activity as "little me, Andy." In meditation, my sense of "Andy" goes away, thoughts still surface and sometimes are engaged briefly, but the overall state of consciousness is, as Adya says "emptiness dancing."

But these changes have evolved over about 25 months, and continue to do so.

Gary Weber is a good friend and I do not think he will mind me quoting from a recent email to me:

As i have found there is no "after awakening", but rather as Harada Roshi said (and as quoted in my book), "enlightenment is capable of endless enlargement", will be interesting what Adya says about that in "The End of Your World".

For "me", the next practice emerges from "the Universe", unsought, unpredictably, and dances itself forward, by itself, in a continually evolving exploration and deepening process.

Virtually every day there is a new discovery, a new opening, a new "yes", until that practice completes itself and on "its own", it falls away, and another arises, unsought, to learn within itself, about itself. It is an amazing dance; there is no "after", only "endless enlargement" and more deepening and stilling beyond what was previously imagined possible.


Neither Adya nor Eckhart have betrayed anyone. They write from their own experiences. And they also say that ours will be different. They are in agreement that the progress is irreversible. They may have an intuitive sense of that, even as it applies to you and me. And that assertion seems intuitively correct to me. But egos vary in their strength and resilience. There might be a five-year plateau; there might be a “three-steps-forward, two-steps-back” stage; a person might die before he or she reaches the level of attainment reached by Ramana (pretty likely.)

All, all, all of it is good. Even the periods of anger, stress, confusion, argument and rebuttal and stagnation. After my kensho, I knew that that experience had to deal with the rest of egoic little me. Spiritual development, whether instantaneous or evolutionary is about being. Psychological maturing is about becoming. Even those who “abide” in pure awareness live with unconscious people and real-world responsibilities. Neither are particularly impressed with a blissful stare. The separate self, even while resident in Self, has many affiliates, like time, language, a body, neighbors, books to read, taxes to pay and a thought-stream habit formed in infancy. Expecting all those to vaporize into the magical concept of enlightenment is devotion to an unrealistic ideal, in my experience.


Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby abomb » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:44 am

I have two main criticisms with Eckhart Tolle. The first is the extravagant amount of money he is pilfering from those suffering. Yes, there's expense and what not but I'm sure anyone with some business sense can see Eckhart is tens of millions in the green and still charging people in need a ridiculous amount of money. Has anyone been to Eckhart T.V. ? ? ?

I went there thinking it was his "experiment" (his own words) on giving his message to anyone the internet his message for free and I find the best money making video site I'd scene in ages. It's straight up spiritual consumerism at it's finest. Month to month streaming access 14.95!, Month to month streaming + downloads 19.95!, 6 months + downloads to your IPOD 99.95!

I feel like I'm navigating a mall of spiritual excrement. And me being a computer engineer, i know how little his expenses are on digital media. He's reaping enormous profits.

So I just can't imagine a truly conscious is behaving in a such a ruthless mode of profiteering. Tens of millions of people who are suffering could be relived if he would operate on the idea of people before profit. If he helped those millions of people for free or on a giant sliding scale maybe he'll lose a lot of money and in 10 years be down to a small mansion a few million dollars, but I would think anyone concious would make that decision.

Jesus saved without asking for a castle, so did the buddha.

My second criticism of Mr. Tolle is stance on not thinking. I certinaly see the value in at times of not thinking, but sometimes you may be getting duped or are under a ruse, and by remaining willifully ignorant you are hurting your self in the long run, like believing in the lies of a charlatan.

-------------

Those are my two criticisms. Overall I think Tolle gets some important stuff that I and many of us can use to better are lives, but I still don't trust him and I think he is half truth and half bs.


************

Please don't take my criticism of Mr. Tolle personally on yourself. I'm sure if I said this to his face he would just laugh and give me an authentic answer. I'm just very confused how this conscious being is so about driving profits faster and harder.
Last edited by abomb on Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby Sighclone » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:04 am

Absent an audited P/L, none of us know anything for sure about Eckhart Tolle's finances, or anyone else's. But for the moment, assume that his net profit per year is $200M. Does anyone know how much of that has been placed in trust in a Foundation bearing no obvious connection to him? Can we forgive him for accumulating great wealth now, only to later fund an Institution? I have no knowledge either way on his plans so will withhold judgement until I do.

Tolle's focus is on awakening. Conditioned thinking creates a false self unconsciously identified with thought. His objective is to expose that illusory self and in that process, thinking gets a bad rap. But he repeatedly emphasizes that the ways you use your mind as a scientist are exactly what it is for. The problem is that one's entire identity becomes the Cartesian one (cogito ergo sum -- I think therefore I am.) The truth is "thinking happens." The step to say "therefore I am" is a subjective one, and subject to deeper inquiry than simple axiom.

Awakening is about discovering that you are not a person, but infinitely larger than that. Not a single faculty is lost, but all of them become ripples on the ocean of who you really are. After that experience, priorities may change, and that possibility is hugely threatening to an intellectual ego.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Tolle Criticism

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:21 pm

There are those non-dual purists who would say that Tolle is not doing anything. What ever wealth is being amassed in his world is just happening. And as I don't entirely subscribe to the no choice perspective, there is merit in recognizing that whatever Tolle does economically has nothing to do with individual awakening. All the information and pointers one would ever need is available for free. Judgment on Tolle's finances is just one more obstacle that must be seen through on the path to clarity.

Tell you what, send me a check and I'll tell you that you don't need to send anyone a check to recognize what's right in front of you. Just look into the world rather than out upon it. 8)

WW
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