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Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:32 am
by Webwanderer
Sighclone wrote:Remember acceptance? Can you not each accept that the other is different, has a different experience with his personal growth? And different needs in replying to and creating posts.


Agreed Andy. The thing is is both perspectives have merit. I actively engage both. On one hand clarity on one's true nature - one's true self as simple conscious awareness - is the gold standard in life perspective. Few however, live in this perspective continuously. How one handles that time where the mind asserts itself into the forefront can make a big difference in how well one finds their way (back) to their core perspective.

Consider, the mind can be very active and distracting. If one is unable to find consistent familiarity with clear presence then conditioned mental habits often reek havoc on one's experience. In this case employing skills of positive thinking/feeling over endlessly spinning negativity can greatly improve one's experience of life. There is no wrong answer here. There is only context.

WW

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:54 pm
by Sighclone
Adya's 2012 book "Falling into Grace" mentions how quickly Presence / Being / Pure Awareness can be put into a trance...by any of a variety of nifty belief systems or ego games. Personal attacks are not necessary in discourse, and decorum is possible to retain even when two polar beliefs collide. We are all more than any belief we express.

Andy

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:46 am
by ashley72
I don't generally criticise Eckhart Tolle.... however, I no longer share his view that a "still mind" is the best antidote in all situations. I think its great to "still the mind" at the right time. However, at other times it seems necessary to do more than merely silently observe the flow of thought, it seems beneficial to the sufferer, to exchange intrusive or protective thoughts for more positive affirmations.

From my own experience "stilling the mind" can certainly be the right antidote with stressful emotions. But at other times, subtle emotions, like trepidation require positive affirmations to promote some positive "direction" for the thinker.

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:46 pm
by rideforever
Sighclone wrote:Adya's 2012 book "Falling into Grace" mentions how quickly Presence / Being / Pure Awareness can be put into a trance...by any of a variety of nifty belief systems or ego games. Personal attacks are not necessary in discourse, and decorum is possible to retain even when two polar beliefs collide. We are all more than any belief we express.

One of the most common ways this happens is by sterilizing debate, and underlying this all too common mechanism is the belief that anything other than peace is wrong.

Peace however is the destination, not the journey.

As the journeys of the great masters have shown, who struggled and battled to understand. In the Gita for instance Krishna counsels Arjuna to go to war against his own people, because to hide is meaningless in this dynamic universe. Hiding by sterilizing just does not lead to anything.

You mustn't be too afraid of some "rubbing" along the journey, which is taking a risk. And if you take no risks, you receive nothing.

The words "Personal attacks" are a little strong, I wonder where that comes from.

My mistakes I accept and am grateful for 'some' nudging.

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:05 pm
by Sighclone
Regarding personal attacks, please re-read this entire thread. Several times you criticize ashley's entire set of posts, and his approach to topics. And he defends. The kernel of your criticism, however is about "who is awake and who is not." In many posts here and elsewhere, you make the point that concepts, thought systems and beliefs are not the path to enlightenment. That truth does not in any way dilute the interesting topic of this thread or thousands of others which begin with concepts (words), grind along with words, and end with words. Sometimes a complex conceptual discovery (quantum nonlocality, Csikszentmihalyi's "Flow," nondual themes in psychotherapy becoming breakthroughs) can be a gigantic nondual pointer for a scientific jnani.

A subtle message "I am awake and you are not," is expressly egoic and confrontational. And a clear indication that the speaker is asleep.

This is my last post on this topic in this thread. Trolling for conflict may benefit some seekers. Do it elsewhere.

Andy

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:22 pm
by rideforever
Yes my words came with poor intentions, and I thank you for the reminder.

Certainly, I have found that it does take courage to intervene in the 'ego' either as the initiator or recipient : without that, nothing really happens, apart from a semblance of "peace".

Not to go on about the Gita, but Krishna said that awakening is so rare and such a narrow passage ... that if 10,000 people were to die for 1 person to awaken, then it was worth it. His words not mine. It is a narrow passage.

It is quite common for people to say such things as : "you have the right to your opinion", or "all opinions are valid". But it's really just a way to not explore. What do those words really mean ? Is it really true ? Let us explore, more. Let us do more, not less.

[ this refers to your original post ]

For your subsequent post, I would say this : I agree with you, but I don't think you refer to what I am doing.

This thread is called "Tolle Criticism" ... so we are brave enough to explore. And certainly, I have no problems with concepts, but in some cases it clear that the ego is dominant beneath and I attempt to point it out in my way, which can be unfortunately unhelpful.

I think it is out of place to call me a 'troll', btw.

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:36 pm
by Leon
Reply to Ashley72:

You express my opinion on the importance of affirmative thinking in lieu of Now in some circumstances that I can add nothing to it.

Best Wishes,

Leon

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:43 pm
by Webwanderer
What is a troll anyway? Is it someone fishing for someone else to bite on the bait of some entrapping offer of dialog? - a fisherman of sorts? Or is it a reference to a poster who has no real interest in an ongoing topic lurking to add distortion and dissension to an otherwise productive discussion? - a troublemaker lurking under a metaphorical bridge of a thoughtful flow under consideration?

In any case, hopefully we are all here to first, find clarity in our own consciousness, and only secondarily to offer pointers that have been useful to us personally in gaining some clarity. Of course it is inherently ticklish ground to presume we know for certain what is best for another. And to the degree we criticize what another asserts to be true - especially in claiming certain knowledge of a better way - we beg scrutiny of the way claimed as the answer and to the quality of criticism in general.

WW

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:13 pm
by Sighclone
Thanks, ride. By "trolling" I meant it in the traditional fishing terminology...putting out some bait hoping others will bite and, in this case, fight. It is a case where modern cyber-culture
has co-opted a perfectly legitimate word. Now, if Mr. Gates and his team had only decided to use the perfectly satisfactory word "Reveal" instead of the disastrous "Unhide..." :twisted:

Gary Weber has a new book out on selected Gita passages...the Gita being only a small part of the 1,800,000 word Mahabarata.

Andy

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:39 pm
by rideforever
Negative Enlightenment vs Positive Enlightenment

It's interesting how frequently people start threads here of the sort "what about my husband / women / money?".

And the reason is that ET has had a Negative Enlightenment, which has nothing to say about the world. It is the inner half of life only, an achievement for sure, but partial.

And that's the reason people keep asking "well TPON is great, but what about my ... need for women etc...". Again and again we see these posts, these questions.

The same issue underlines ET's $200 million/ a year. Yes, that seems to me to go explicitly against his message of meekness. And the answer to how he comes to be in this contradictory situation is that he has not paid enough attention to the meaning of the outer world ... so it creeps in through the backdoor.

He doesn't refer to the outer world, but as he has not dealt with it, the subconscious movements continue and hence he finds himself hoarding wealth.

Positive Enlightenment, teachings of, are quite rare. Most teachers of the past have taught asceticism ... to try to be still and ignore the body. To be celibate, poor, meek etc...

ET's message of being NOW says nothing about being wild like an eagle soaring in the sky, or the rapture of sex, or the need to express and create.

In fact he often mocks modern things. But even modern things ... are in Creation. His limited enlightenment does not include these parts of God.

RickRoss ... if you can withstand his negativity ... is sensing some of these problems in his thread.

To examine the difference we can take what the first poster here said : "Getting angry does not help anything".

This is the kind of comment that goes around spiritual groups. But is true ?

If a tiger comes to hunt you ... you better hope you get angry or you will be eaten. And that is how God's world is. Accept that.

And to my eyes, thread after thread on this board concerns the world ... and the lack of help with the world that TPON gives - TPON omits / avoids the world.

Sit still in the Now ... all will be well. But is it true ? What is you are starving ?

You see .... Acceptance can be of a much higher order. Accept the need to fight, to have sex.

Someone may appear Still... but they may just be dead. Actually Stillness is on the inside, being physically still is meaningless.

In the recent aside with WW and SC ... I suppose I am attempting to come out of group-think that defends Eckhart Tolle ... and to gain a deeper understanding.

Positive Enlightenment as you can see, is a deeper acceptance of "What Is", that includes the Outer World.

For the World, Totality is what is necessary. This is Krishna's teaching.

In fact The Key Master did mention this on Page 3. But no-one on the thread understood the signficance :
This gives the appearance to the mind that the cause of peace and stillness, the cause of detachment from thinking, is that there isn't thinking taking place. That ain't right.
Eckhart wisely teaches to accept what is. But the conceptual framework for his "ego" implicitly includes a thinking resistance variable.

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:48 pm
by Sighclone
Eckhart Tolle's main value has been to suggest, in accessible language, to people living in narrow egoic dreamworlds that there is something else in their realm of consciousness, something larger and more inclusive and less stressful, and perhaps available. His detours and arm-waving and odd creations ("painbody") are subject to lengthy criticism and have been. Ride - can you provide us with audited profit-loss statements from Tolle's company to substantiate your comments about his income or hoarding? And how do we know that his hoarding might not someday produce a foundation like Bill Gates'?

What exactly is the "right" thing for someone else to do with his/her wealth anyway. How could anyone possible "know" the correct investment/spending decision for another?

Andy

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:51 pm
by rideforever
SH, yes I accept your nudging. But if you look at page 1 again you will see 5 posters all backing up each other, backing up ET. To introduce something new is not easy.

>> SH, yes I love ET. But we can understand more deeply, as many people here want to do.

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:16 pm
by Webwanderer
rideforever wrote:In the recent aside with WW and SC ... I suppose I am attempting to come out of group-think that defends Eckhart Tolle ... and to gain a deeper understanding.

You'll have a hard time making your case by misrepresenting another's point of view with such pejorative references. This only serves to make the case of how you attack others.

Group-think:
1. the practice of approaching problems or issues as matters that are best dealt with by consensus of a group rather than by individuals acting independently; conformity.

2. the lack of individual creativity, or of a sense of personal responsibility, that is sometimes characteristic of group interaction.


Isn't it enough that you offer your opinion and perspective without such unproductive assumptions that only distance/separate yourself from others?

WW

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:41 pm
by rideforever
When you say "make a case" what this means is to convince others. This is group-think, which is the collective action of a group of egos, who understand themselves in the opinions of others. Which is again the mechanism of ego.

To be beyond ego is to be individual and not require other people to approve of you.

In 5 pages of discussion the only person who offered some resistance was TKM with his post on P3.

That post was just ignored by the thread.

In many ways this thread is instructional in the mechanisms of ego. That includes my negativity. ET's one sided enlightenment. RickRoss's sensing of a deep problem with ET. And the collective defending, and rejection of new ideas.

Re: Tolle Criticism

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:03 pm
by ashley72
rideforever wrote:SH, yes I accept your nudging. But if you look at page 1 again you will see 5 posters all backing up each other, backing up ET. To introduce something new is not easy.

>> SH, yes I love ET. But we can understand more deeply, as many people here want to do.


If this is your view, that "introducing something new is not easy".. Then why did you try and discredit my first post in this thread in such a harsh way?

I was one of those brave posters trying to understand more deeply... and not being like one of the "supposedly" 5 posters all backing up Tolle.

What you seem to lack is sincerity! :wink: