Fighting to be free

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soapbox
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Fighting to be free

Post by soapbox » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:31 am

If we want to be present, we must transcend mind.

We appear to be the only species on this planet with a born disease. What's wrong with us? Why can't we just be born without our dysfunction? What's the point of everyone having to fight back a thing that's a part of them and is always ready to attack? Be silent, be still! And yet, every other animal on this planet doesn't have to do a thing to be still and we're the only ones. Is it because we are smart and we can think on much higher levels? So then why are we born thinking that we are this or that?

Glycine
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by Glycine » Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:27 pm

I don't think mind is a disease. It is here for a purpose. We just need to realize that there's more to us than just mind!
Also, I don't think we are the only species with mind and ego. You may want to take a look at this thread:
http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... f=4&t=5070

James
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by James » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:01 pm

Soapbox my friend, you are asking questions that may not be helpful, such as:
So then why are we born thinking that we are this or that?
I don't find the question "why" to be all that useful, the mind likes "why" because it keeps it engaged and in the driver seat, (driving in circles). "How" tends to be more helpful. Such as "how can I not be duped by my own mind? How can I not identify with my thoughts? How can I not take my thoughts seriously?" The pointers given by Tolle and other teachers are meant to point to the "how", but not to explain everything, or answer all the "why" questions, (there will always be another "why" question lurking in the mind). Once you know the how, you won't be bothered by why, and will be OK with not knowing the answer.

Have you listened to the Gateways To Now recording? How about the Stillness Speaks audiobook. They offer some great "how" pointers.

J.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

Mushinsan
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by Mushinsan » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:11 pm

What and who you are fighting you should embrace, for in that resistance there is a pointer to something more. The resistance comes from not wanting to face it. What do you have to lose? Seriously, look for yourself, what is it you are really afraid of?

Glycine
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by Glycine » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:00 pm

Similar to soapbox, I must admit: of all the things I get attached to, the mind is by far the most difficult to ignore....
I feel compelled to analyze and categorize everything in right/wrong, good/bad, true/false.

I find it easiest to ignore my mind when I'm alone in nature - I feel empty, happy, and connected to everything.
However, as soon as I start working or interacting with people, my mind forcefully takes back the driver's seat.
Funny enough, even recalling anything about waking up is enough to put the mind back in charge!

James
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by James » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:43 pm

Mushinsan said:
What and who you are fighting you should embrace, for in that resistance there is a pointer to something more. The resistance comes from not wanting to face it. What do you have to lose? Seriously, look for yourself, what is it you are really afraid of?
Yes, only mind, fights mind. Non resistance and acceptance of all that IS, is the way.

Acceptance is one of the three gateways that Eckhart suggests in Gateways To Now, it is perhaps the most important one. Try it out soapbox, begin by accepting this moment and all that it entails, including the thoughts that seem unacceptable, those thoughts that are in opposition, and the fears, accept them too. Give them all space to be. We don't get rid of anything, we embrace all. I bet you would experience harmony very quickly if you did that. The proof is in your experience, that is all that is needed for assurance (no further explanations are required).

I am not implying that this is a once and done thing, you may need to remind yourself periodically throughout the day to accept the moment and all that it entails.

J.

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+Jim+
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by +Jim+ » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:19 am

James wrote: Acceptance is one of the three gateways that Eckhart suggests in Gateways To Now, it is perhaps the most important one. Try it out soapbox, begin by accepting this moment and all that it entails, including the thoughts that seem unacceptable, those thoughts that are in opposition, and the fears, accept them too. Give them all space to be. We don't get rid of anything, we embrace all. I bet you would experience harmony very quickly if you did that. The proof is in your experience, that is all that is needed for assurance (no further explanations are required).

I am not implying that this is a once and done thing, you may need to remind yourself periodically throughout the day to accept the moment and all that it entails.

J.
Acceptance and surrender are often quoted as the solution, but they are not acts that can be made.
If acceptance and surrender are choices then one is still trying to control!
Intellectual understanding is totally inadequate for meeting daily life.
It's like attempting to nourish yourself on the memory of yesterday's lunch!


http://simplyenlightening.wordpress.com/about/

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as.it.is
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by as.it.is » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:49 am

You will drive yourself crazy try to experience every moment , to accept the now is delusion at it purest form, you have a you have a heart and feelings not just a mind , to just surrender to now is ludacrous.

For example , if you are conscious and aware and you focus that you have to experience this moment or you decide to feel your inner body , you are taking all the attention from what's really happening around you and you end up missing out , it's a form of self-loathing, what works for Eckhart tolle might not work for you , and if you resonate with that mind pattern go right ahead but it's not the truth but a philosophy and a mind wash like other patterns of minds that are out there , most of them found in cults.
When you awake it will be your biggest regret.

Juno
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by Juno » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:05 pm

Allow worked and works for me for a long time. No fighting : ) Acceptance is now easier. I see acceptance as surrender and I get it now what I am accepting and surrendering. How could one surrender before they know what they are surrendering? For me accept probably caused more resistance. For a long time I didn't like that word. It had a religious flare in my mind that I resisted. With understanding and my mind opening, acceptance equaling surrender I have no problem with it. I understand it now.
Something else I have enjoyed is how I'm much more gentle with myself. I love that. It's good for this mind to have these words to rest easy. The illusion is fading but it hasen't faded over night. These pointers of acceptance, surrender, allowing - all pointers have helped things move along more quickly than if I were left without pointers. I may have mis-understood them at times only to surface when it was time to sink in.
Monica
Last edited by Juno on Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
by thinking of something you create an entity and by thinking of nothing you create another. Let such erroneous thinking perish utterly, and then nothing will remain for you to go seeking!
Huang Po

Mushinsan
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by Mushinsan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:41 pm

as.it.is wrote:You will drive yourself crazy try to experience every moment , to accept the now is delusion at it purest form, you have a you have a heart and feelings not just a mind , to just surrender to now is ludacrous.

For example , if you are conscious and aware and you focus that you have to experience this moment or you decide to feel your inner body , you are taking all the attention from what's really happening around you and you end up missing out , it's a form of self-loathing, what works for Eckhart tolle might not work for you , and if you resonate with that mind pattern go right ahead but it's not the truth but a philosophy and a mind wash like other patterns of minds that are out there , most of them found in cults.

I agree with the trying part. If your putting effort into it your motives are self serving. However, what is there besides this now, what has there ever been? Surrendering to this realization is necessary to see your own true nature. If you dont volunatarily give in to this, how could you ever enjoy this life to its fullest.

Honestly, you are assuming there is still someone driving the bus, deciding what they prefer to do. IF you surrender completely who will go crazy? There wont be a mental image of you anymore to do anything anymore. You will just be, as you where intended to be. Wheres the problem in that??

Juno
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by Juno » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:47 pm

If you dont volunatarily give in to this, how could you ever enjoy this life to its fullest.
"Who" can voluntarily give into it?
by thinking of something you create an entity and by thinking of nothing you create another. Let such erroneous thinking perish utterly, and then nothing will remain for you to go seeking!
Huang Po

James
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by James » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:04 pm

Thank you Juno, for sharing that. What could be more gentle and loving than full acceptance of the way things are? It is interesting how we can get hung up on words based on our conditioning or interpretations of their meanings. To me acceptance is the opposite of control, allowing everything to be as it is this moment.

This is a good time to make a plug for Adyashanti's True Meditation. The idea of this approach is non-manipulation of experience, (another way of describing acceptance). It is based on the Indian sage, Ramana Maharshi's statement of "Let what comes, come; let what goes, go; and see what remains." What remains or is always present, as an unchanging Presence or being, not the experiences, but that which has the experiences, that come and go.

Product Description:
What would happen if you were to allow everything to be exactly as it is? If you gave up the need for control, and instead embraced the whole of your experience in each moment that arose? In the fourteen years that he studied Zen, Adyashanti found that most seasoned meditators had used the practice as a means to a goal they never reached. What he ultimately realized: that only when you let go of all techniques?even the concept of yourself as a meditator?will you open to the art of true meditation: dwelling in the natural state. True Meditation invites you to join the growing number of seekers who have been touched by the wisdom of Adyashanti.
If you purchase it through this link, it helps support this forum.

http://astore.amazon.com/enlightenment_ ... 1591794676

J.

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kiki
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by kiki » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:34 pm

This is a good time to make a plug for Adyashanti's True Meditation. The idea of this approach is non-manipulation of experience, (another way of describing acceptance). It is based on the Indian sage, Ramana Maharshi's statement of "Let what comes, come; let what goes, go; and see what remains." What remains or is always present, as an unchanging Presence or being, not the experiences, but that which has the experiences, that come and go.
This is a good reminder - thanks James.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Mushinsan
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by Mushinsan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:44 pm

Juno wrote:
If you dont volunatarily give in to this, how could you ever enjoy this life to its fullest.
"Who" can voluntarily give into it?
Only the one who hasn't yet. Here's the deal with life. At first, lifes great (as a child), then life stinks more or less ( as an adult) whats the difference? you start judging it. So, maybe your lucky one day and see that youve been doing it to yourself the whole time, then you- you that is sitting there feeling good, desides to take responsibility for your view on life and start enjoying it while its here.

Juno
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Re: Fighting to be free

Post by Juno » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:30 pm

Mushinsan wrote:
Juno wrote:
If you dont volunatarily give in to this, how could you ever enjoy this life to its fullest.
"Who" can voluntarily give into it?
Only the one who hasn't yet. Here's the deal with life. At first, lifes great (as a child), then life stinks more or less ( as an adult) whats the difference? you start judging it. So, maybe your lucky one day and see that youve been doing it to yourself the whole time, then you- you that is sitting there feeling good, desides to take responsibility for your view on life and start enjoying it while its here.
i was intuitevely drawn this direction but it had nothing to do with the one that would be sitting here feeling good. That you, you are saying might take responsibility couldn't. It wasen't something "i" could do. The shift happened, the obvious is put in my face. The illusions more and more are seen through, through that that's awake. i couldn't voluntarily give in because until the shift I didn't know what i was giving into. i tried to give in for years. Always trying to be responsible for my actions. It never worked until that that's awake took the steering wheel. Voluntarily giving into something would mean there are two. me and that that I'm giving into. Pointers like allowing things to be let me breath.
Monica
by thinking of something you create an entity and by thinking of nothing you create another. Let such erroneous thinking perish utterly, and then nothing will remain for you to go seeking!
Huang Po

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