Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby James » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:07 pm

Craig said:
I'd like to add that Eckhart does seem unusual in some ways because his teachings do seem to leave out certain aspects related to awakening. While I can certainly see the resonances of Advaita in Eckhart's teachings about watching your thoughts, it also seems at times that a lot of what he discusses involves practices or things we should "do", which seems that it could fuel the belief that you're a separate, individual "doer".

I understand what you are saying. The way I see it, Eckhart's teaching is often the first glimpse of awakening for many. In a sense it is a wide gate, it has helped many on a large scale. Often early on there is a habitual need to do something to awaken, a practice of some sort, and that is fine. So a teacher attempts to provide what the students are ready for. The practices are kind of like training wheels, that eventually we see that we don't need them anymore, and shed them on our own. Actually compared to many contemporary teachers, what Tolle gives in terms of practices, is very minimal. He often says in his talks that he prefers not to give practices. He also says (not in so many words) that early on it seems as though we are doing something to awaken, when actually what is occurring is that awakening is happening through us, in spite of our efforts.

I think what is important is that we not fixate on any one facet of awakening.
Tolle may be the first stop on the train of enlightenment, for many, but not necessarily the last stop. There may be many stops, perhaps an endless unfolding of realizations. Eckhart does not claim that his is the only teaching one will ever need, or that it addresses all aspects of reality, although his students sometimes make such pronouncements. Perhaps that is the case for some students, or perhaps it is just wishful thinking. When we are new to awakening, we often wish it is was simple, with such thoughts as "why can't there just be one book to read or one simple method." One quotation to remember, one pointer. Frustration can set in, sometimes this leads to withdraw, or fixating on the realm of emptiness or meaningless. That can be a trap.

Emptiness as described by Advaita, is only one facet of the jewel of awakening, but there are many other facets. We don't want to anchor down in any one realm, and say "this is it, I have arrived", but rather stay fluid and in the flow of life. What is most helpful for me, is coming to that place of loving truth for the sake of truth, for no other reason. No goals, no shoulds, no expectations. Just a simple relaxing into Grace, in gratitude. Being sensitive to that inner movement and be willing to be led by it.

Relax and enjoy the moment :D

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:45 pm

In some ways awakening is like growing a plant. Does anyone actually "grow" a plant? Not really. We may plant the seed, add fertilizer and water appropriately, but growing is a natural process that happens on its own. In other words we may create an environment for awakening/growth to take place, but we are powerless to make it happen.

And just as it is with the growth of a plant, it is apparently true that some environments are more amenable to awakening than others, which is why we seek more enriching conditions once we decide to foster that increasing clarity. This forum was created as one small contribution to that purpose (Thanks Eric and Heidi).

The world of form itself however, may be one big hydroponic garden for the developement of consciousness. And awakening to one's true nature as awareness may be just one step in that process. There is likely much to be gained through the experience of living in form awake or not.

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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby HermitLoon » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:56 pm

On realization That which cannot change, remains. The great peace, the deep silence, the hidden beauty of reality remains. While it cannot be conveyed through words, it is waiting for you to experience for yourself. Then, even in the body, you are not born. To be embodied or bodyless is the same to you. You reach a point when nothing can happen to you. Without body, you cannot be killed; without possessions, you cannot be robbed; without mind, you cannot be deceived. There is no point where a desire of fear can hook on. As long as no change can happen to you, what else matters?
On realization, you feel complete, fulfilled, free from the pleasure-pain complex, and yet not always able to explain what happened, why and how. You can put it only in negative terms: "Nothing is wrong with me any longer".

-Maharaj
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby sevenworlds » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:41 pm

Ok, maybe I should explain a few things before I go - whether or not it makes any difference I don't know.

From the moment I first heard Tolle 2 years ago I knew he was speaking the truth and it kickstarted a process that has been ongoing. Mentally, physically and emotionally. My mother died suddenly and unexpectedly very soon after this, and though it came out of the blue, I somehow knew it was related to what was happening to me. A week or so after her funeral, I was lying in bed and my whole body started shaking, with some force coming through it. I wasn't concerned at all by this, just sort of observing it in wonder. From then on I've had similar physical experiences almost every day - sometimes spontaneous dancing, movement, cracking/popping in the body. That year, 2007, when I was 27, all sorts of insights flooded my being and I had many strange coincidences and synchronicities happen. My whole life changed that year in so many ways and yet throughout it all none of it mattered that much because I now had found what I'd been looking for (without realising).

I started to know so many things without knowing how I knew. I somehow knew my mind had stopped suddenly and all the aches and pains and body movements were a result of this new intelligence throwing out all the past rubbish that had accumulated in my system. I could crack something in my leg and then I'd watch an old memory dissolve or burst into tears. That's how I understood the body and mind are one - not through reading it in some book but through direct understanding. At one point I started to spontaneously do various mudras and still do (I didn't know what they were at first but knew they were somehow channeling energy through the body). Sometimes I chant but I don't know what I'm chanting. Sometimes I speak in some language I don't understand (possibly sanskrit). I don't consciously do any of this, it just happens.

My understanding of what Eckhart speaks of is exactly the same - it has been a direct knowing from day one. When I first read his books I didn't have to question anything really, it was simply confirming what I already knew. In fact, because it hit me so hard and because I hadn't encountered any spirituality before that, I started telling my family about it, believing everyone will know this. It started to dawn on me after a while that it's not that simple and even spiritual seekers who have been studying for years are often not directly understanding. Over the 2 years that certainty has never left me but my understanding of the process my body/mind has been going through has grown.

I say all of this because it is interesting that I've come on here with this question and because it challenges the teacher this forum is based on, I seem to be immediately perceived as not understanding and being suggested to watch my ego. It's very odd for me reading some of the replies because something isn't right. Either there are a lot of 'enlightened masters' on this forum or I'm completely mad. Maybe I am and maybe it's both. When Eckhart says "even if the Buddha came and said 'no, you're wrong'..." - it is not arrogance but that is how I feel. Nothing could shake the certainty I have, except I am aware of this lingering 'I' who knows he is in this state. That is all that seems to be left.

You may not like the way I say things, and maybe I am blunt and not polite enough, I don't know, but it seems some are getting that confused - being 'nice' and being in your natural state don't always go together. Also, for people who have been studying spiritual matters for years longer than I have and are years older, I can see how it might piss them off if someone comes along like this. I've witnessed it elsewhere. I'm just a regular guy, I don't dress spiritual, talk spiritual or do any spiritual practices. I don't see why I should adopt those things now. In fact, I understand the true meaning of things like yoga, mudras, meditation never having studied them. We go at them the wrong way round. They are spontaneous occurences that the human organism in it's natural state does to balance the energy but disciples of those in that state have witnessed their masters do them and tried to create systems and techniques out of them to help get into that state. It's absurd.

Anyway, yet again, I wish you all well and this time I really will leave you to it. I don't know why I had to say all that. I look at it sometimes and think "no, you can't say that" but something demands it be said. You are welcome to think I'm an arrogant, egomaniac, madman - maybe I am? :)
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Onceler » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm

You stopped by for a reason, thanks, and best wishes.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby James » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:58 pm

sevenworlds

I listened to the music samples on your web site, I enjoyed them very much, It feels very soulful to me. Best wishes with your music career and all else.

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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?/No Self

Postby James » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:47 pm

In light of this discussion about "no doer" "no self", for those interested, Adyashanti has made another satsang available as a free download, the title is No Self. It might be a helpful clarification.


Download 01:34 hours/minutes
No Self No Charge
FREE Download!
Palo Alto, California, January 24, 2001. A satsang classic that revolves around the Buddha's realization of no self.

#90 at this link:
http://www.adyashanti.org/cafedharma/in ... rary_audio
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby randomguy » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:38 pm

Thanks for sharing, sevenworlds. That was good to read.

Edit:
Just me, but sometimes when I vent like that I later find good material for inquiry.
Last edited by randomguy on Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby letitgo » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:59 pm

Sometimes... I think you guys go way over the top!!

Come on, you can't respond when somebody calls your name?

Are we here to experience the human experience, warts and all, or are we here to float higher and higher off the planet?

There are so many wonderful teachers out there. More varied and wonderful than have ever been on earth... pick one!

I really do love you guys and your plight towards perfection.

Sincerely, Norm
To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby eagle2phoenix » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:42 am

I was drawn to this thread and would like to ask this question. Is it important to find out if ET is fully realized? I discovered ET and TPON in 2005 and have been following his teachings closely since then. His books based on ancient teachings have touched me as profound teachings are written in simple English. And each time I go into depression, I seek solace in his books, much like a bible.

If the question needs to be asked, then I ask if Jesus Christ or the Buddha or their disciples/followers know in their lifetime that they were enlightened? Was Jesus Christ living and teaching as Jesus or as The Christ? Was it his ego calling out to God "Father, why have you forsaken me?" Was it Gautama's ego to be drowned out when he finally decided that he had lived as a prince, a son, a lover, a husband, a father, and that it was time to go searching for answers to questions he wanted answered?

I feel we are led to some people or teachers by spiritual guidance (what some of you call resonance). Soul group? And we will go on from teacher to teacher until we find the one we are looking for. In some cases ultimately, it is the one within oneself.

And what is FULLY realized?? The one who is fully realized would be the Supreme Being, The Christ and The Buddha.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby randomguy » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:58 pm

Yeah, good question. Even if our minds were successful at evaluating a qualitative depth of realization in one teacher over another would that necessarily imply a correlation between that perceived depth of realization and the relevance of the teachings to what we are most open to at the time?

It seems to be about what eagle2pheonix wrote, a felt sense of guidance or resonance with the teaching.

For me at least, the link to the free Adya satsang that James posted couldn't be more relevant to this topic. Justifying a choice of teacher in a me-centered manner, 'I chose Tolle because I recognized this, that, or the other', seems to be missing the mark.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby James » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:21 pm

Good points eagle2phoenix.

Jesus supposedly had a few moments of temptations or doubt. I suspect Buddha did too even after enlightenment. I think no matter how deep our realization is, there is always that potential for human thinking, little me thoughts, fear or fallibility. It seems that the difference is, the so called masters just don't get hooked by these thoughts, or they get unhooked from them very quickly, seeing them for what they are.

Since mystical experiences were mentioned earlier in this thread, I wanted to add that Adya discusses it briefly in this satsang download No Self. From reading this forum, it is apparent that many people have mystical experiences, changes in the body or energetic shifts. I have had some over the years, early on there were several intense mystical experiences. It would have been nice if I had stayed awake after that, but for most it does not work out that way. We hear or read about the legends that had swift transformations all in one moment, or over night, or at a young age. I don't doubt that that happens, but it is probably in a very small percentage that it occurs that way.

For most of us it seems to be more gradual, with many smaller, sudden or spontaneous episodes of realization; back peddling perhaps. It may seem like two steps forward, one step back at times. Kind of like climbing mountains, the further we go into the mountain range the higher the terrain gets, a higher altitude, but there are lots of peaks, valleys and plateaus along the way. Obviously the analogy is limited because it is really more like an inner journey, of discovering what already is. But for most of us there seems to be a maturing process or integration period, we assimilate the truth of our our being, which always already is, into the form existence. It is almost as though we have to relearn everything a new, just as a child does when it grows.

I think it is important not to be too infatuated by any mystical experience, energetic or bodily changes, they are not necessary for awakening, and they don't imply that we are awake; although they can be quite pleasant and fascinating, and can give us a glimpse or peak beyond the veil, the experience of our true nature, which may wet our appetite for more. But we could just as easily be deluded by these experiences, thinking that we have special powers or talents, maybe even forming a "messiah complex." Delusions can happen at any stage of awakening, and can even operate in tandem with awakening. There have been great sages and spiritual lights throughout history that became deluded, or had periods of delusions, in spite of their prior enlightenment. It is not a personal problem, just the human condition or propensity.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Sighclone » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:42 pm

7w –

Guru A seems more enlightened than Guru B. Maybe guru A’s eyes are deeper than Guru B’s. Maybe his voice is clearer. What is the real litmus test? There is not one, of course, because self-realization is something which happens in isolation, in the consciousness of one person. And there is no objective set EEG pattern to confirm any of it…or blood pH…or anything else except our intuition.

Observing behavior isn’t reliable either. Maharaj smoked. Ramanda read the paper and wrote poetry, Osho had many cars, Eckhart refuses cold soup, Adya eats meat and plays poker, OGK buys fresh vegetables.

But we don’t want to go around following false leaders either. So we look for ego residues. Maybe we find something to point at. Maybe that’s ego, maybe it’s pain body, maybe it’s a “bad day.” But we are told that ego is the anti-measure for enlightenment. Awakening is an experience that removes the confines and conditioning of ego, or at least exposes the illusory ego-posturings for what they are, a false self. And we believe people wake up, and we get hints or have experiences ourselves. And sometimes those experiences appear to have physical manifestations like energy surges which have lots of names in lots of languages. And maybe, by our own measure we wake up and wear the badge…enlightened being. And maybe we write posts or books and have webinars.

But no one will ever know who else is FULLY realized, by trying to measure what’s left of ego.

The Parker interview with ET which is at the bottom of the fan site, the host page for this forum, located here: http://www.inner-growth.info/power_of_n ... e_home.htm is interesting. In it, ET agrees that maybe some residue of ego is present in enlightened persons. Pure Advaitists say no. John Welwood (“Toward a Psychology of Awakening”) helps us understand what forms of ego might remain, and, really, we should not even talk about ego without a clear definition, decidedly absent from Eckhart’s vague definitions.

But it’s fun anyway… thanks, sevenworlds...and everyone else who commented!

Namaste, Andy
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby randomguy » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:47 pm

On the issue of body-mind changes some may be interested in the interview portion of Adya's Spontaneous Awakening (Or the whole thing for that matter). Adya has described a second phase of awakening called 'stabilization' in which the body and mind adjust and find equilibrium in present awareness.

In feeble summary it goes something like this, present awareness is surrendered to and the body and mind adjust themselves.

It seems to be part of replacing negative conditioning with positive and seems to fall in line with utilizing inquiry, addressing the negativity we can reach, and stabalizing where we accept and love everything. (Yes a description in time and also considering the future, blech, but at least it comes from observational experience from Adya).

However, I don't know why some teachers speak about it and other don't. My mind suspects that it might have something to so with Adya's gradual awakening vs a sudden one or whether a person is more prone to visual, auditory or kinesthetic sensory input. But we know what a suspicion of the mind is worth. And ultimately it doesn't matter.

Am I clinging too much to this and deluding myself? Maybe. So far thought, it seems to ring true.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby sevenworlds » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:14 pm

I shouldn't keep saying this is my last post.

I disagree James about the moments of doubt and temptation. At one time, when Eckhart was the only one I was aware of, I felt it was like that, but now I don't feel that way. If you read accounts and statements of people like UG and Nisargadatta Maharaj there is this undeniable sense that nothing can touch them. There will still be thoughts but no chance of temptation or falling from that state. Something in me knows that to be true and it's how I know there is still something not right about the state I am in now.

I agree about the mystical experiences. That was partly my point for stating them, to show despite all these things happening very suddenly and in a short space of time, I am still not satisfied by any of it. I wasn't looking for this at all. It just hit me from somewhere. Like Eckhart, I was very unhappy leading up to it and then everything changed. Since then I've been like a dog with a bone. I can't go back and sort of live a normal life dipping into this now and again. There is just this constant drive which is not a personal thing - I don't know where it comes from - to keep breaking down more barriers. I couldn't tell you why it's there so there's no way I can claim credit for it or feel superior to anyone.

If there is a motive behind my original question here, it is that drive to keep stripping away layers until I'm satisfied. Not in an mind way but from what I understand, it's not even satisfaction, but a point where all the questions just completely disappear and you wouldn't even know whether or not you're satisfied. I don't see how asking this question is any different to other forms of inquiry. Whatever you see in the other IS you and so to get to the core of yourself you must be able to see the pure "you" in the other. I think this is the issue behind spirituality that gives us problems. There is probably only a handful of truly liberated beings at any one time, if not in all history, and they will be the only ones who can be 100% sure of another in that state. The rest of us can only see what our current level of understanding allows us to. It's as if you need someone above your current level to keep pulling you up higher. That 'someone' is ultimately the one life force (you) in the guise of a teacher. But that's how so many claimaints of this state can get away with fooling people and deluding themselves since nobody but those who have went all the way (only a few) can be sure they aren't fully liberated.

That is probably why these beings are so rare because it usually takes another in that state to bring it out. In the past that usually meant visiting them in person. We are lucky because we live in a time where we have access to many from the comfort of our homes. Yet the other side of that is there are now more people claiming to be spiritual teachers than ever before. Many of them can say all the right things but that doesn't mean they are truly operating from that state. I'm sorry to say I feel Adyashanti is one. He says all the right things but something isn't right. The words seem 'flat' to me, like they carry no authority, it's somehow learnt. I do definitely feel Eckhart's words carry an authority but I'm not 100% sure he has went all the way. How do I find out for sure? Well, that question has a drive behind it and the only way I can be sure is to trust that drive to fully reveal me to myself.
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