Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Sighclone » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:34 pm

7w -

You say:
I do definitely feel Eckhart's words carry an authority but I'm not 100% sure he has went all the way. How do I find out for sure? Well, that question has a drive behind it and the only way I can be sure is to trust that drive to fully reveal me to myself.


Option A: You continue your inquiry and discover that ET did, in fact not go all the way. Perhaps this comes about because he tells you, or some other final authority convinces you. What do you do then? Do you drop all your spiritual progress because you were following an incomplete teacher? Do you complete your re-alignment to OGK and announce your discovery of ETs shortcomings to the world?

Option B: Your deep explorations reveal to you that although ET was not fully realized in 1999 when he wrote PON, that by 2008, he was. What do you do?

I'm hearing a smart spiritual ego preparing to write a guidebook to the gurus, announcing which ones are FULLY realized, and which ones aren't. Backed up by either intuition or hard research (whatever that is in this realm.) This need is disguised, though, by "me trying to find myself." If you were truly searching for confirmation of your experiences and not just creating a hierarchy of enlightened beings, the individual teacher and his/her "status" would not matter at all, just the teaching.

My 2 cents...

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There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby randomguy » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:37 pm

Whatever you see in the other IS you and so to get to the core of yourself you must be able to see the pure "you" in the other

He says all the right things but something isn't right. The words seem 'flat' to me, like they carry no authority, it's somehow learnt.

Mhmm?
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby sevenworlds » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:03 pm

Sighclone wrote:7w –

Guru A seems more enlightened than Guru B. Maybe guru A’s eyes are deeper than Guru B’s. Maybe his voice is clearer. What is the real litmus test? There is not one, of course, because self-realization is something which happens in isolation, in the consciousness of one person. And there is no objective set EEG pattern to confirm any of it…or blood pH…or anything else except our intuition.

Observing behavior isn’t reliable either. Maharaj smoked. Ramanda read the paper and wrote poetry, Osho had many cars, Eckhart refuses cold soup, Adya eats meat and plays poker, OGK buys fresh vegetables.


The real litmus test is a knowing that cannot be explained. Not a knowing by the senses but once that knowing is established you can see it through the eyes of the guru, not what they do but how they do. It can never be explained in words. They could be shouting and swearing, smoking, drinking, eating meat, whatever... but that energy would be there constantly.

Sighclone wrote:I'm hearing a smart spiritual ego preparing to write a guidebook to the gurus, announcing which ones are FULLY realized, and which ones aren't. Backed up by either intuition or hard research (whatever that is in this realm.) This need is disguised, though, by "me trying to find myself." If you were truly searching for confirmation of your experiences and not just creating a hierarchy of enlightened beings, the individual teacher and his/her "status" would not matter at all, just the teaching.


I have written songs about this, and at one point wanted to put them out, which would have made sense for financial reasons and for career and to announce to the world "I have found something great here, come and listen". I knew deep down it wasn't right. I am not interested in bringing down gurus or claiming I know and you don't. All my interests have fallen away. Not in the sense I am a zombie, I am still capable of functioning, but I can't explain other than my life has become very simple. I say what I say, and I don't know why, and then it's finished. If I come back and read the next day I may or may not respond. I never know what I am going to say here - I don't have an agenda. You don't have to believe that.

randomguy wrote:
Whatever you see in the other IS you and so to get to the core of yourself you must be able to see the pure "you" in the other

He says all the right things but something isn't right. The words seem 'flat' to me, like they carry no authority, it's somehow learnt.

Mhmm?


Exactly. If I was on here trying to maintain a point of view I would be careful not to contradict myself like that. I am simply saying what I see. I'm not judging Adyashanti or trying to convince you. If you feel something from him you will ignore me anyway.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?/Certainty?

Postby James » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:26 pm

sevenworlds said
sorry to say I feel Adyashanti is one. He says all the right things but something isn't right. The words seem 'flat' to me, like they carry no authority, it's somehow learnt. I do definitely feel Eckhart's words carry an authority but I'm not 100% sure he has went all the way. How do I find out for sure? Well, that question has a drive behind it and the only way I can be sure is to trust that drive to fully reveal me to myself.


It sounds like Guru worship to me, looking for an infallible authority, but then saying I have to find that in myself (grasping). How would you know they are the authority if you haven't found it in yourself yet? :D

Papaji, who you mentioned earlier that you liked, was very down to earth, made lots of mistakes, was not always authoritative, but that is what I love about him, he is real and relatable. I don't know much about U.G. Krishnamurti, so I can't comment on his message or approach; I tried watching some of his youtube videos last night and could not get my interest up. I bet if you hung around him long enough, or read and watched enough of him, you would find some chinks in his armor. As randomguy and ww mentioned earlier, what do you really know for certain? That is a good point of inquiry. Awakening has more to do with unknowing than knowing. It is often described as a state of unknowing. The less I know for certain the more clarity there is. The human mind/ego has a strong desire for certainty, that is a trap. Have you noticed throughout history that most all religious zealots felt certainty, conviction, and rightness. In fact most humans would say that their perspective on the world is the right one, they are certain of it. I would start with that assumption of certainty and knowing, through the tool of inquiry.

What can never be touched is the inner truth or reality of being that resides equally in all of us, the "I AM", that is about as certain as we can be.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby randomguy » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:34 pm

There is just this constant drive which is not a personal thing - I don't know where it comes from - to keep breaking down more barriers.

If there is a motive behind my original question here, it is that drive to keep stripping away layers until I'm satisfied. Not in an mind way but from what I understand, it's not even satisfaction, but a point where all the questions just completely disappear and you wouldn't even know whether or not you're satisfied.

If I was on here trying to maintain a point of view I would be careful not to contradict myself like that. I am simply saying what I see.


Maybe you stopped by here to do more than merely say what you see, but also to get a reflection of and to question what you are saying. Could there be another barrier there?

If it were possible that you aren't just saying things from surrendered present awareness in the way that Papaji's arm collects a grocery item, but instead are speaking with some influence from unrecognized thought identification? If so, would you want to realize that and go beyond that? Or would you be fine to continue saying what you have to say from an unknown drive even if you believed it was the present when it wasn't?

Just one random guy's opinionated question, but is it possible that there may be some resistance, even defensive energy at play that a real part of you intended to display on this forum? I realize I could be totally wrong, just thought I'd ask because after all you are me and I would want you to ask if you were where I am.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby sevenworlds » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:01 pm

James, I think you are mistaken what I mean by authoritative. I don't necessarily mean forceful in action or words. The authority I'm talking about can be there when gentle words are being spoken or laughter.

I see plenty of what we call flaws in UG's character as a person. It doesn't change what is there. It either hits the spot or it doesn't.

I do not know anything for certain other than this. I don't know what 'this' is, I can't speak about it, but it is the only one thing I know for certain, not as an object. Through knowing this, somehow I can know what is false. It is not that it is wrong or shouldn't be but simply false in that it isn't coming directly from that place into what we call this world. Not that it isn't also 'this' either or that this world is separate from it. It's the only way I can express through language.

randomguy, I honestly do not know why I am here anymore than I know why I'm anywhere else. I just follow through. I have done so for the past 2 years since this all first hit me and it hasn't let me down yet. Back then it seemed to be a state that came and went, now it doesn't. I can't even formulate or work out in my head why I might be here. It's like when I try the thought just sort of dissolves. That happens with a lot of things in my life now. There are certain things I cannot do anymore that I used to be able to. No matter how much I may say "ok, I better not say that because people on this forum will think I have a raging ego" it demands to be said. It has got nothing to do with me. I mean, even saying this seems pointless because whatever I say you will make your own mind up but yet it demands to be said.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby randomguy » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:36 pm

It has got nothing to do with me. I mean, even saying this seems pointless because whatever I say you will make your own mind up but yet it demands to be said.


Oh, I don't know, my heart can sometimes be open to pointers when they appear. Enjoy the ride, 7w. Namaste.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Sighclone » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:47 pm

sevenworlds is certainly echoing the traditional Advaitist view that authentic guru energy is present in a fully self-realized being, and less so or not so in others. I have not sat with a fully, acknowleged self-realized person, so I cannot comment with any authority. I'm content with 7w's judgement that Eckhart, in his experience, is missing something, or contains something that OGK is/does not, and that OGK is more fully self-realized. And I will explore the work of OGK, and try to get past my initial aversion to his style. But being content with the judgement or opinion doesn't mean I agree. I still like Adya. I don't particularly like Leonard Jacobsen, have questions about Loch Kelly, and have always had problems with Ram Dass. But I can take even a phrase from Andrew Cohen and appreciate it.

Namaste, Andy
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby James » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:13 pm

Sevenworlds
I'll tell you a little story. In the early nineties I had a spiritual teacher that seemed to fit what I was looking for and wanting. He was authoritative, wrote more than 30 books, traveled the world teaching enlightenment. He seemed deeply realized and had all kind of mystical experiences. For about 7 years I thought "this is it, the ultimate teaching, the ultimate state of consciousness. I know it for sure, I feel it, I was led here by Grace". Many of us definitely glorified this teacher. We were waiting for that direct transmission from teacher to student, through one of his living surrogate teachers, so we too could be illumined. Well that whole ball of yarn began to unwind after a few years, one after another the disillusionment became clearer and clearer. Now looking back, I don't see that he was wrong or a false prophet or anything like that. I appreciate the lessons learned at that time and through that teaching, for some reason I was attracted to it; but there was quite a bit of spin put on the whole thing by those of us who had him on a pedestal.

I suspect you are thinking to yourself, that your experience will be different then mine, that won't happen to you. You say you are certain of something or some teacher, maybe you are, maybe not; who knows for sure? It is not my concern. All I can say is "I don't know" for sure. It seems to me that we get what we need one way or the other, and it is incidental what form it comes through. What is interesting about life to me is that my perception of it is always changing, just when I think I have it figured out, that insight is gone and it is replaced by another. They are all fleeting glimpses, different aspects of the one reality, none of them anymore true than another. All just relative perspectives.

So do what you feel compelled to do. It was fun talking with you, stay in touch; I would like to hear how things work out for you.


james
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Onceler » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:12 am

I say we put them all into a room, let's say....Findhorn, and have a teach-off...kind of a satsang smackdown: ET, Adya, B. Katie, O.G and J Krishnamurti, Osha, the whole lot.

There would have to be a clear winner who would be the "most fully realized" at the end of the weekend. Or at least we would have good material to debate for the rest of our lives...
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby James » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:19 am

Great idea Onceler

You bring the "kryptonite" :wink:

J.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Onceler » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:22 am

How did you know about my secret stash?
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:44 am

Onceler wrote:How did you know about my secret stash?

How else would such an idea come to you? :lol:

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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby sevenworlds » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:02 am

All I can say is this certainty has nothing to do with mind. I don't know anything for sure, and I don't have a feeling like "yes, this it". It is a certainty that is undeniable and yet unexplainable. It's just there, a living thing that cannot be captured. If you knew me before, I was a very skeptical person. I was never interested in religion or spirituality. My life was about music. I doubted everything. Even with music, I was always looking for a realness in a song and artist. I now realise I was actually looking for Truth.

It's an acausal thing. It exists outside of time and that is why it can't be a gradual development. Where we go wrong is we've built up a path to it over centuries through all these texts, techniques, methods and teachers. It just hits you out of nowhere. It can happen to anyone but there is nothing you can do to make it happen. I'm still wondering what has happened to me. Maybe the last hurdle is fully coming to terms with the fact I never will.

Ok, well, it's been good discussing with you all and this exchange probably has helped me in ways I didn't expect.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby James » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:38 am

Onceler said: "How did you know about my secret stash?"

Why, x-ray vision of course :shock:

WW would be a good referee at the Satsang Smackdown, Andy can keep score, I'll bring the popcorn, randomguy can you bring a keg of beer? Oh wait its a spiritual group, better make it herbal tea, he he. SevenW can bring his guitar and play monster jams between rounds for us, or no make it new age melodies. Onceler will hiding under the stage with the kryptonite... Yeah that's the ticket.

J.
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