Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby randomguy » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:12 am

randomguy can you bring a keg of beer? Oh wait its a spiritual group, better make it herbal tea


Done, 2 kegs of Chamomile. Guru Satsang Smackdown? Hahahahahahaha.
Oh, I'm there. As a follow-up, maybe we should also consider "Dancing With the Gurus."

Ok, well, it's been good discussing with you all and this exchange probably has helped me in ways I didn't expect.

Yeah, good discussion, 7w. Anything that ends in Guru Smackdown has to be good.
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tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Onceler » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:29 am

I am definitely there, maybe green tea so we can get a little rowdy....Kiki and Sighclone need jobs...and James.

I too enjoyed the discussion and don't mean to make light of it. There is much content to be digested. Of particular interest to me is the movement of presence through the body as 7w and others here have described.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby James » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:21 am

Onceler said:
I am definitely there, maybe green tea so we can get a little rowdy....Kiki and Sighclone need jobs...and James.


Hear that randomguy, can we make it one keg of chamomile and one keg of green tea for the rowdy counselor? I thought Andy (Sighclone) wouldn't mind keeping score.... Kiki? How about frequency holding, he keeps us from going overboard. I'll be making and distributing popcorn, wearing one of those white hats with pink stripes on it.

I too enjoyed the discussion and don't mean to make light of it. There is much content to be digested. Of particular interest to me is the movement of presence through the body as 7w and others here have described
.

I agree, I appreciate the questions and energy that sevenworlds stirred up, and I don't doubt his awakening. But it is good to laugh at ourselves too, all the ironies and idiosyncrasies of humanhood.

I remember seeing a chapter in a book, a little while back, the chapter was called My Guru Is More Enlightened Than Your Guru, I'll have to ask my Sister what the title of the book is, it had something to do with the pitfalls of enlightenment chasers. I did a Google search to look for it and found this instead, it is called The False Guru Test, at Energy Grid Alternative Magazine (chuckles). I have never been one for checklists of this sort, I guess I come from the school of intuition/trial and error. But here it is anyway for whatever it's worth, some of them seem are no brainers; some a matter of opinion. I am not implying anything by posting it.

james

************************************************


The False Guru Test
Andrew Paterson—updated 04/2006

TAKE THE FALSE GURU TEST. If seven or more of the following describes your guru or spiritual teacher, then unfortunately he or she may not be be as enlightened or good for your soul as you would like to believe:

1. States his or her own enlightenment: The wisest masters tend not to state their own enlightenment or perfection for they know that it is both unhelpful to themselves and to their students. The false teachers often make this claim because they have little else on offer to attract followers.

2. Is unable to take criticism: False teachers strongly dislike either personal criticism or criticism of their teaching; they do not take kindly to ordinary unenlightened individuals questioning them. They or their organisations will even undertake multi-million dollar law suits to stop ex-members from spilling the beans.

3. Acts omnipotently with no accountability: Some spiritual communities are run like concentration camps, with guru and his chosen ones acting like Gestapo officers. Unjust or outrageous behaviour by the guru is passed off as what is needed to help the followers grow (how kind). These are the dangerous gurus who have often severely damaged their students. A real master respects your will even if he or she understands that your particular decisions may not be in your interest, and he or she will act accountably to an ethical code of conduct.

4. Focuses on enlightenment itself rather than teaching the path leading to it: It is amazing how much false gurus have to say about enlightenment. They argue their points in the same way that the scholars in the middle ages argued how many angels could sit on the head of a pin. Any fool can talk about the end goal because what is said is irrefutable to most of your listeners. What is skillful is guiding those listeners to having awakening within themselves. The real teacher focuses on the path and strictly avoids any talk on enlightenment.

5. Does not practice what is preached: Contrary to spiritual myth, you don't reach a point of realization whereby you can then start acting mindlessly. If a teacher preaches love and forgiveness, then he should act that way, at least most of the time, showing suitable regret for any lapses). If he teaches meditation, he should meditate. If he insists that his followers live in austere conditions, so should he.

6. Takes the credit for a particular meditative or healing technique: The fact is that meditation and guided visualisation work. Anyone doing them will experience major changes, benefits and realizations. The false guru will try to own or trademark particular methods and techniques so that she has something unique to attract followers. And she will hijack the effects of meditation as the guru's blessing rather than each individuals natural potential. Often the students or followers are forbidden from divulging the techniques to maintain a sort of intellectual property right, usually under the guise of needing the technique to be taught correctly.

7. Specifically gives satsang or darshan when it is not part of his culture: Darshan is when the disciples or students of a master line up and to pass their master, who is usually seated, with either a bow or traditionally kissing their feet (yes it does happen). In the East, this is part of their culture and a normal thing to do to show respect and reverence (even children will kiss the feet of their fathers). However, here in the West, such copycat behaviour is a strong indication that the guru is acting a role. Satsang, on the other hand, means literally "the company of the Truth". In a deeper sense it is an affirmation of the Guru-Disciple relationship in Eastern traditions. But some Western gurus will use this terminology because they are playing a role.

8. Lives in total opulence: There is nothing wrong with living in luxury or being wealthy. But when that luxury turns to unnecessary opulence using funds that were not explicity donated for that purpose then you are probably dealing with a false guru. Money is collected from followers usually in the form of donations, and those donations are given as an act of love, appreciation and to help spread the influence of the master. However, a genuine master is more likely to use such wealth to lessen the suffering in this world, not to buy another yacht, private jet or Rolls Royce.

9. Encourages or permits adoration from his followers: Avoid any group that focuses on the "master" themselves rather than the teachings or spiritual practices. This will be a hindrance to your self-realisation for your focus will be drawn outside of yourself, and usually indicates that there is not a lot more on offer than guru worship.

10. Presents himself or herself overly fashionably and glamorously: Beware of masters who present glamour photographs of themselves and dress overly fashionably (whilst proclaiming that they have no ego and leading ego-death retreats). Yes it does happen!

11. Demands love and devotion from their students: Keep clear of any master who demands love and devotion. One very well known Western guru stated, "Anyone who loves me is guaranteed enlightenment"! Real love and devotion is earned over time when we begin to really know the whole person and not their public image.

12. Speaks with an Indian accent or vernacular when he is in fact a Westerner: Not sure how much this happens now but there are some high profile Western gurus who have (or had) Indian accents, mannerisms and vernacular. Unless they have genuinely spent considerable time in other cultures, they are probably playing out a role.

13. Runs expensive miracle workshops and courses: You are unlikely to reach enlightenment after a few weekend workshops with cheesy titles. In our society of "must have now", we want to be able to purchase spiritual development with minimal fuss. Also, avoid meaningless accreditation — it is often used merely to encourage followers to do more courses.

14. Takes sexual advantage of his or her followers: This happens much more than many believe. It is not being prudish to include this one because when a follower falls under the spell of a guru he or she is likely to do anything for the Chosen One. It is only afterwards that it may dawn on the follower that his or her openness has been used and abused. This can be very psychologically scarring.

15. Flatters you and treats you as very special: Sure we are all special in some ways, but this is one of the things that a false guru may do to hook a potential follower or to get a current follower to do a particular task. Nothing can be more intoxicating to the ego than to be selected by the master or leader (or any high profile person). A real master will stand back and allow you to make your decision whether to accept his or her teachings without trying to influence the process.

16. Talks bollocks: It is surprising what a person will listen to when he or she is devoted to the speaker. It is always a good idea to get hold of a written transcript of what has been said and really read the message. Then tell an open-minded friend who is not a follower what their opinion is purely on the strength of the words. You will soon find out whether there is any real substance to the teacher's message, or whether you are merely being drawn in by the charisma of the messenger.

17. Overly relies on slick presentation: Slick presentation can often mask poor content, and so it is important for you to look past the lovely music and video shows at the actual message. The slicker the presentation, the harder it is to see what exactly the teaching is.

18. Gives him or herself outrageous titles: Not satisfied by being "merely" an enlightened being, many false gurus give themselves titles (or allow their followers to do so) to indicate that they are literally God-Incarnate, the reincarnation of the Buddha or Christ, or THE chosen one. Some continually change their names, to keep pace with their burgeoning egos.

19. Runs abundance workshops: A guru or master is there to help us find an authentic life. This is nothing to do with becoming more successful at work or making more money, although this may or may not follow from being more authentic. There is nothing wrong with abundance weekends, but if we mistake spirituality for increased business success, then we are guilty of spiritual materialism and we find ourselves deeper in the illusion. (The Japanese say that the Gods laugh at those who pray for money.)

20. Is not interested in you personally: If a teacher or guru does not have time to interact with you personally, then you may as well read his teaching from a book, because merely being in his presence doesn't help you find realization inside you. You may model some of his spiritual characteristics, but that often only places you deeper in illusion.

21. Allows his followers to set up a hierarchy of access: A guru must be accessible. If he is not, or if he allows his followers to block your access, then he is playing the role of a king and not a spiritual guide. A guru is only useful to the process of awakening if you can directly interact with him.

22. Makes false claims of lineage: Many mistakenly believe that realisation can only happen under the guidance of a realized master. In this belief system, gurus are only authentic when they come from a line or lineage of realized gurus. Desperate not to be left out, some gurus claim a false lineage of enlightened masters to bolster their authority to teach. Another pseudo form of "lineage" is to recount a miracle that once happened to them (maybe they cured themselves of some disease or God spoke to them personally) which infers that they are "chosen" and therefore have the authority to set themselves up as teachers and gurus.

23. Presents themselves as non-profit whilst raking in the millions: Often, the false prophet will present her teachings for free, whilst strongly encouraging her devotees to make large donations. In this way she can appear above money considerations, whilst maintaining her greed and opulence.

24. Collects a large band of angry ex-followers: This is an indication that something is seriously wrong. If she has used kindness and love in her interactions with her students, and has discouraged them from projecting denied spiritual characteristics onto the guru (rather than encouraging their integration into the self), then it is extremely unlikely that there would be more than a few disheartened ex's. Many might drift away and feel they have wasted their time, but they are only likely to have the great anger if they have put their teacher on a pedestal, given him their power, and later realized that he was never worthy of such adoration. Contrary to what some believe, it is actually the teacher's responsibility to strongly discourage students from putting them on pedestals, for this is counterproductive to finding realisation inside.

25. Uses pseudo-technology: Many false prophets and organisations base themselves around pseudo-technology in the effort to appear scientific — special meters, communication devices (do you really expect the aliens to use a mobile?) and energy clearing instruments and pendants that involve crystals and copper wire. Once again, this is to distract the unwary from the poor quality of the actual teaching.

26. Acts like a complete paranoid mad person: If your Precious One acts like a complete paranoid schizophrenic or psychotic then he or she probably is. Run! Remember that there is no such thing as "crazy wisdom"—wisdom is the art of being balanced. However charismatic they may be, and sane between moments of madness, you WILL be damaged by them.



Please note that this test is only a rough guide, and it was written without any particular guru or teacher in mind — any likeness is purely coincidental.


Andrew Paterson is an independent writer currently living in London.

© EnergyGrid Magazine
http://www.energygrid.com/spirit/ap-falsegurutest.html

"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby eagle2phoenix » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:58 am

For some reason, my reply earlier did not get thru. What is the lesson here? Shut up. Anyway, I have forgotten what I had written. :(

7world, David,

Your songs tell me that you are searching for perfection, the whole. Maybe you should stop your search for the perfect one. When the time is right, the right one will appear before you. Let's hope you can recognize him/her. Did you watch The Love Guru? Mike Myers is so sickeningly funny. If the Guru Pitka was a real guru, would you follow him? Or would you follow his teachings?

If Jesus were here to day, would you recognize him, follow him or follow his teachings? Or say he is so unreal? What is being taught by all the teachers is the same, that you and I are God essence, we are made of the same qualities (only our physical outlook and mental selves differ). Look into yourself and find the answer. No need to question who is and who is not. Of course we will not know all the answers but why look for all the answers? Just look at nature and see how well a tree grows without questions. If you decide to cut off its trunk, it just grows another way unless you decide to kill its roots. A tree in its natural state with its branches reaches high up for the sky and its roots goes deep down into the ground, that's all.

Does this make sense? I am confused but it's ok. :lol:
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby sevenworlds » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:52 pm

eagle2phoenix wrote:7world, David,

Your songs tell me that you are searching for perfection, the whole. Maybe you should stop your search for the perfect one. When the time is right, the right one will appear before you. Let's hope you can recognize him/her. Did you watch The Love Guru? Mike Myers is so sickeningly funny. If the Guru Pitka was a real guru, would you follow him? Or would you follow his teachings?


Just to add, those songs were written 6 - 10 years ago, when I was searching, although I didn't know what for. I wasn't into spirituality then. I'm still not into it. I don't like the whole business - gurus, awakening, presence, beingness... all those terms are meaningless to me now. I've never been to a satsang or spiritual retreat and I have no intention of. I wish I was able to write another album, put it out, make lots of money but what to write about now?

Anyway, carry on... I was enjoying the spiritual piss-take.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby eagle2phoenix » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:09 pm

Wasn't aware that the songs were so old while the website looks kind of cool. So you stopped your search and are still not interested in anything spiritual. Yet you have read and know so much. Maybe if you opened up your heart (let it radiate love rather than anger and frustration), be less angry at whatever or yourself, you will be able to write the songs you wish to write again. And by the way, why do you sound so angry? :evil:

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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby James » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:11 pm

sevenworlds said:
I don't like the whole business - gurus, awakening, presence, beingness... all those terms are meaningless to me now.

I was reading some things about U.G. Krishnamurti yesterday, there seems to be growing numbers that are attracted to his style and message. As you are probably aware, he is sometimes referred to as the Anti-Guru Guru. I must admit he was charismatic and enigmatic. I read most of the quotes on the unofficial website http://www.ugkrishnamurti.org/ and I could give my opinion of it, but instead I will leave you to your own experience; and let others that are interested, decide what value it has for them.

james
Last edited by James on Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Sighclone » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:36 pm

Any thread that gets james fired up is a good one! I'm totally there for the smackdown, and I'll bring an orgone collector so we can see who is really firing off the good vibrations!

sevenworlds: Yours is a very convincing path/story. You say there is nothing left to write music about. Let me submit that now there is everything to write about, from the tiniest firefly lost in a cave, to the deep orange sunrise, to a small child concerned about his mother...

It's just that they all are reflections and emanations of something you now feel and understand - you can write about their perfection and simplicity, not their angst and challenges.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby mikel » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:27 pm

I wasn't into spirituality then. I'm still not into it. I don't like the whole business - gurus, awakening, presence, beingness... all those terms are meaningless to me now.


That is interesting.. here is some of what I have wrestled with around this.

Amidst the phenomenon of my psychological web this is a kind of experience that arises for me, an acute sense of how ultimately everything is without meaning..

For me it relates to the kind of person (the me) that had formed through that psychological web through out my child hood and on..

I would say a strong existential wondering developed in my late teens, and that of itself formed the kind of person I was becoming, always searching for meaning through art and music. Someone once remarked I was kind of wonder Lost.

Deep down I ached to be whole and included and often I felt aloof, like I was on the outside of life looking in, kind of marginalised.

It was an interesting mix and produced a real sense of contact with creative processes such as making music or art to get to the soul of the mysterious aspects of life and existence.

There was always a kind creative probing into imagery, sound, and words.. To make sense of the commonplace things which often seemed to have two aspects.. The logical and illogical. And often when I looked at myself there was this same kind of probing.

The upshot of it is that I am learning a hell of a lot about my psychological web.
It transforms quiet a bit when one cognises the actual knowing the I AM, this vast field of ever-present existence.. Permeating everything. And even the I that knows is just that expressing in some phenomenal way.

The fall off in your interest in making music and being creative is understandable
And I can relate to that..

Perhaps as you deepen into the aliveness and living quality of what is your essential nature.. Creativity may come in again to be expressed in a different way

Something I considered was that even though there are aspects of existence, which have no ultimate meaning. Through our human form we can create temporary meaning, which lasts for a time then either gets destroyed or fades out of consciousness naturally
There is a kind of play in that.. And suggests that life is not just a flatline of experience.

I’ve kind of touched on aspects of what I am going through here and also what your posts have brought up for me.. it helps to gain clarity in the web! :)

To quickly address the primary question about ET, full realization and Gurus and the discussion and pondering that can produce etc. It’s a bit like a giant soup, constantly being stirred about in the pot of consciousness. You can add anything into it politics, religion, celebrity and so on. It often makes me dizzy, but it is also quiet meaningful for a time until it loses it’s meaning or the meaning of it changes, and new meaning arises in the form something else or an unexplored aspect.

I suppose consciousness is the container of it all and that is what we are and that is realised by some and not by others.
To what degree is anyones guess??
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby goldenbirdies » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:31 pm

James wrote:
The False Guru Test
Andrew Paterson—updated 04/2006

TAKE THE FALSE GURU TEST. If seven or more of the following describes your guru or spiritual teacher, then unfortunately he or she may not be be as enlightened or good for your soul as you would like to believe:

when a follower falls under the spell of a guru he or she is likely to do anything for the Chosen One.


For a hilarious half-hour on this sort of thing, I reccomend the Mighty Boosh's "Fountain of Youth" episode (dvd series 2) - including the song "I love the Chosen One"... You will love it, or I'll eat my hat !

David
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby sevenworlds » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:39 pm

eagle2phoenix wrote:And by the way, why do you sound so angry? :evil:


I'm not angry. You are interpreting my words as taking an angry tone because my responses are not what you are conditioned to believe should be coming from an awakened person. Eckhart's teaching doesn't help with this. The anger is just a form of energy. To awaken, you must throw both out - calmness and anger both have to go, love and hate, manners and impoliteness. Then you don't know what you are left with. It is simply free to express.

Sighclone wrote:sevenworlds: Yours is a very convincing path/story. You say there is nothing left to write music about. Let me submit that now there is everything to write about, from the tiniest firefly lost in a cave, to the deep orange sunrise, to a small child concerned about his mother...

It's just that they all are reflections and emanations of something you now feel and understand - you can write about their perfection and simplicity, not their angst and challenges.

Namaste, Andy


I hear what you're saying Andy. It's not that I can't make music anymore. It's difficult to explain. Apart from the physical aches and pains which I have every day from this and which limit how long I can sing and play, what I mean is because there is no angst there anymore, no (or not much of) a centre left to coordinate my activities, any songwriting that takes place is not through my individual choice anymore. It happens spontaneously. I can't say to myself "ok, lets write a song about a, b or c..." anymore. The mind is blank, there is nothing there. When it happens I'm left wondering where these words have come from. I have the same thing with conversations these days. I have no interest in talking about anything else other than this. If someone brings up football, relationships, tv, whatever in my company I am happy to listen and I will occasionally join in but it doesn't mean much so I have no interest in starting those conversations. It might sound like a depressing state or that I've rejected the world but it's not that. I did go through a period of rejecting but now it's become something else. I don't know if that makes sense.

It's also very difficult for me to plan things anymore. It sort of feels like II'm finding my feet again, getting used to doing things this way. Maybe more music will come, maybe it won't. It doesn't matter much to me whether it does or doesn't because I know it can't be any other way.

Coming back to Eckhart, you might like to watch these interview clips with UG and then this long interview with Mooji on the Never Not Here show:

Rajiv Mehrotra (part 1) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tHeNqfZjmM
Rajiv Mehrotra (part 2) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I97m63isiGw
Rajiv Mehrotra (part 3) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tHeNqfZjmM

Shashi Kumar (part 1) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrfTkqCUA20
Shashi Kumar (part 2) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Hq6--JaRM

Mooji, Never Not Here - http://www.viddler.com/explore/ClearSightTV/videos/56/

Although they are both very different people, you might notice they are gracious and polite with the interviewer for the most part but they are not afraid to challenge the interviewer and firmly guide him if they are trying to grasp with the mind. I started to lose interest in Eckhart during the Oprah webcasts last year for that very reason. There were many moments where she was clearly misunderstanding (or grasping mentally) at this and he was allowing it to go unchecked. That didn't feel right to me because millions of people watching would also then misunderstand, especially fans of Oprah. People out there then believe they understand but are simply throwing empty phrases around. It becomes another form of entertainment for them.

Again, let me state I'm not trying to bring down Eckhart or Oprah as people or to hold up Mooji or UG as gurus. I think it's easy to get in a comfort zone with this and in my experience, it's been the times when I've heard something from UG, Mooji or whoever else that I've not wanted to hear, and that feels uncomfortable, which have benefited me most. You need someone or something to keep prodding until it all falls away. I don't like to say that is possibly why I am here but I don't see any other reason. I don't want to be here if that makes any sense. I keep wanting to go but then something brings me back to read the replies and the replies bring out a response. I write way too much, I'm probably not polite enough as someone pointed out, but I can't be anything other than what I am. Maybe for me part of this lesson is getting used to being this. I used to be very shy. We have been brainwashed for so long with an image of this state as full of love, compassion, bliss... when really it's just about being yourself. It's so simple I don't think it's something you would want.

Ok, I'll get off the podium. :oops:
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby eagle2phoenix » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:13 pm

sevenworlds wrote:I'm not angry. You are interpreting my words as taking an angry tone because my responses are not what you are conditioned to believe should be coming from an awakened person. Eckhart's teaching doesn't help with this. The anger is just a form of energy. To awaken, you must throw both out - calmness and anger both have to go, love and hate, manners and impoliteness. Then you don't know what you are left with. It is simply free to express.


7Ws, you are indeed wise. I read your lines as one who is blinkered. My sincere apologies and I thank you for pointing that out. Which is why I wrote in another thread Of Ego's Death and Depression that I feel I am going nuts because I am no longer sure who is behind my writing.

sevenworlds wrote:The mind is blank, there is nothing there. When it happens I'm left wondering where these words have come from. I have the same thing with conversations these days. I have no interest in talking about anything else other than this. If someone brings up football, relationships, tv, whatever in my company I am happy to listen and I will occasionally join in but it doesn't mean much so I have no interest in starting those conversations. It might sound like a depressing state or that I've rejected the world but it's not that. I did go through a period of rejecting but now it's become something else. I don't know if that makes sense.

It's also very difficult for me to plan things anymore. It sort of feels like II'm finding my feet again, getting used to doing things this way. Maybe more music will come, maybe it won't. It doesn't matter much to me whether it does or doesn't because I know it can't be any other way.


I now understand you better. I do feel like this as well. My mind is constantly blank, I cannot think. And I like to talk about spirituality but it is difficult to get birds of the same feather to flock together. With normal friends, it tends to get misunderstood. People start relating to religions and it gets ugly.

I tend to do simple things these days instead of complex ones. Gardening helps me.

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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby randomguy » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:45 pm

I like UG's answer to "who are you?" He doesn't spoon feed, does he. He does seem to be living awakened in his skin.

In my meaningless armchair assessment I would agree that he has completed the awakening that is described by Ramana's observation "The world is illusion, only Brahmin is real, the world is Brahmin."

One observable distinction between him and other teachers in watching these videos and others is that he seems to wear a personality that sort of invites challenge from others. There was a video on youtube, where, even as a very old man, others around him were nearly yelling at him and challenging him, getting a rise from him, which he didn't seem to mind or try to put an end to. His personality doesn't seem to care to establish a bubble of respectable spirituality or even common politeness. He's a raw awakened guy.

I think this thread touches a nerve as indicated by it's length and interest. I resonate with the experience 7w presents on these pages. And it's Adyashanti's teachings that keep popping up when I read these posts.

There's an 11 minute free audio file on his site called "The Welcome Mat" (currently the 8th one down the list). One can get a sense of where Adya places the role of non-dualism and the guru one one's journey of awakening.

http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=listenonline
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby Sighclone » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:18 pm

7w -

I hear you about ET's webinars with Oprah. ET is a gentleman to a fault. He was profoundly shy before awakening. I believe his main message is for absolute beginners. Almost all of his dialogues are between him and those very new to the concept. Both of his books are written for the general public. For these reasons, I can forgive him what appear to be critical lapses of refinement.

Thanks for the links to UGK.

I spent several months stumbling around in some kind of bliss/no bliss depersonalized goofiness, after my first kensho. Then life kind of stabilized, mainly, I think, by allowing a bit of ego to return. After all, we do live in a society utterly dominated by egos. It is very very hard to be totally content there without at least the expression of some kind of egoic interactions. I do not have to identify with my egoic behavior to let it appear. Yes, it just encourages egoic stuff in others, but if the alternative is a complete dislocation of myself from the "conditioned unconscious vast majority" of people in my family and community, then I am isolated, and others wonder, worry and point at me.

So why not put on a small garment of ego to interact with - sort of a calling card to the world. It is not necessary to be an arrogant jerk, of course. But if some behaviors were spontaneous before, and benign but egoic, and you yield to them and express them, how great is the loss? Might you even have more impact in expressing nonduality becuase you will be in a larger community? I have a feeling that is why Maharshi came down from Arunchala. And maybe why Eckhart would do that silly egoic high-five at the end of each webinar...

It is all good, 7w, including any meaningful disputes you have with members here...we are just digging for truth with the gravely inadequate tools of language.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Is Eckhart FULLY realized?

Postby James » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:10 pm

Mikel, randomguy, Andy, all good suggestions, observations. I am enjoying the insights that this topic has brought out. I listened to The Welcome Mat again, that is apropo. Also what keeps coming to mind for me is from Adyashanti's End of Your World CD 3, One track is called Being "Drunk On Emptiness" and another is The Trap Of Meaninglessness. Adya describes how sometimes he encounters students that are fixated on meaninglessness, and they are difficult to reach or penetrate. Because any pointer he gives will be rebutted with something like, "it doesn't matter how I act or what I do, because there is no one there doing it, it's all an illusion." It can be a well defended mental position. Meaninglessness and emptiness are one facet of reality but not the only facet, that is what I have experienced. There are lots of other facets, joy, love, peace, clarity, understanding, communion, to name a few; I find them to be equally valid. "The world is Brahmin", so even an illusion must have a degree of reality or it would not exist at all. Who is here typing this, who is reading it? If it were entirely an illusion, none of it would be possible.

Generally speaking, people can experience emptiness directly through meditation or inquiry, I do at times. Or it can be experienced spontaneously and unexpectedly as an unfolding. But then the experience can become a thought, (no longer an experience) but a mental position. The little me can use any real and authentic awakening experiences to reconstitute itself through thinking. It happens on a very subtle, sneaky level. So now we have a little me that insists that it does not exist, but spends a lot of time trying to convince others of its non existence. Isn't that ironic?

Alright, that is my limited, relative and ironic perspective.

I am finding that it is better to allow others to have their own experience; everyone's path is unique, and they will be attracted to what resonates at any given time. And we don't really know what is best for others or how it may unfold for them. Perhaps for some, complete emptiness is how it manifests? But are we to infer that it should be that way for everyone? As I said earlier, it seems life gives us what we need, one way or another, in terms of lessons. That is how it has been for me. And it is incidental what form the lessons come through; whether it is the events of our lives, mistakes, experiences, a teacher, a song, a bird or a tree, it does not seem to matter. It is all life expressing itself, revealing itself in different guises. It's all good.

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."
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