The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Ralph » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:25 pm

So, how can a separate self get this? it is impossible.

The belief in a separate self is the culprit. As long as you believe that you are separate from me, there is no chance of getting what kiki and Andy are pointing to. See, there is nothing in it for you. Get out of the way and there it is. You are what stands in the way of true seeing. In truth, there is no 'me' and no 'you' , there is just oneness playing the game of twoness. The belief in separation is what keeps the game going.

xtallman, who/what are you really ? Investigate that.

Here is a good pointer:
We have created this false sense of self and then we go looking from that point of view to try to find out what we really are. Yet that self-knowing is constantly with us."

~'Sailor' Bob Adamson
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Sighclone » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:06 pm

xtall -

Thank you for your questions, and thanks to all for the replies. Later, in a few days, I will post a fairly lengthy review of "Buddha's Brain", Hanson and Mendius, newharbingerpublications, 2009. It presents a clinical, neurophysiological basis for the "apparent self." And the fact that it constantly changes, comes and goes, etc. (from p. 212: In the brain, every manifestation of the self is impermanent.)

But waiting for my review, which will have MUST READ attached to it, is no reason to hesitate in ordering it. And, xtall, you may start with Chapter 13, specifically addressing the self -- you are an advanced student of awareness, articulate, modest, respectful and attentive. The rest of the book is wonderful, exhaustively documented, yet eminently readable. But Chapter 13 exposes the brain-based sources for your sense of self, how it forms, etc. The authors divide the "self" into aspects (reflective self -- "I am solving a problem;" emotional self -- "I am upset;" autobiographical self (having a unique past and future, and core self (dependent on subcortical and brain stem structures and function.) They also go into "self-as-object" (would I rather eat Chinese or Thai food tonight?) and "self-as-subject" (the experiencer of experiences). (I'll be working with the publisher for permission to quote longer passages which might violate the fair use doctrine, before I publish the review; after I clarify the size and interest present in this forum, they tend to permit it.)

There are also sections on the subtitle topics: "The practical Neuroscience of happiness, love and wisdom." And a section on diet supplements, meditation techniques, etc.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby xtallman » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:13 am

Ralph, I don't know how to answer you. I have heard this many times. I hear this is not about thinking, so I am focusing on experience. My honest experience is that I am separate from others. There are times I feel a oneness with someone - I don't know if that is what you are talking about - and there are many times - most times - when I feel very separate, even alone. I experience people whose beliefs and energy and experiences are totally foreign to me. I cannot force myself to ingest a concept such as "we are all one" without having experienced it. And if both my mind and my experience disagrees with this, what hope is there for me coming to a different understanding?

I hear you say, "Get out of the way and there it is" - I really have no idea what that means in terms of action, experience, thought, whatever. There were many years - most of my life - when I was not seeking, at least not consciously, to understand these things. So there were no concepts in the way at that time. Your comment leaves me lost.

How do I investigate who I am, differently than I have? I have asked myself who I am many times, and always get a slightly different answer. I certainly have never come up with the answer of universal consciousness - I really don't understand what that term means. If I do the same as I have always done (ask who I am), I will just get the same results. What is it you want me to do differently than what I have done?

kiki, I have the same reaction to your post. I hear you (and others) trying to point me in a different direction, but I am not getting it. Who I am is not a foreign question to me. But I have never drawn the conclusion, or had the experience, that you all seem to point to. It is frustrating - I feel if I understood the concepts better, I would have a better chance of going where you all want me to go. And I hear it is not about understanding or concepts. That leaves me in a void, and the temptation, which I have done several times with advaita, is to chuck it all because I have no idea what else to do.

But I always come back - I feel there must be something there if so many wise teachers say there is, and if so many people seem to get something I don't. It is a frustrating game of hide and seek - when I seek to understand, I am told not to seek, just be. Well, I have always been just who I am, and I have suffered a lot in that state. I hear promises of inner peace, which would attract anyone. I hear people say it's easy, you're already there, you just have to see it. There is a weird kind of logic that feels there is truth in there somewhere, but obviously my life has not been transformed and I am not at peace. I really am trying not to figure this out with my mind. I really have tried to go inside and just be. I have tried to not try, to not seek. I feel lost in a tangle of words while this gem dangles out of reach. I also know I am not alone - I know that some people seek for years to understand concepts like this, or to live them, or to experience them, and do not feel they have reached any kind of enlightenment. So the concept may be simple, but the path there is not necessarily obvious or easy to find. I know I am not alone in my confusion. And I believe you are all trying your best to point me in the right direction - but I am lost by your pointers. Maybe one has to just get it, and there is no rhyme nor reason as to why or when one gets it? But it doesn't seem right that inner peace comes by the roll of the dice.

Anyway, I'm rambling, I am still very grateful that people continue to try to help. I'm just a bit discouraged right now.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby kiki » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:11 am

xtallman, the struggle you are having is perfectly ok, believe it or not. You are seeing the futility of all these words, pointers, and effort; that's what happens when you want to understand this intellectually, but the mind never will truly understand it. There is a value in your futility, however, because at some point there can come a complete "giving up" if you continue - that giving up brings you to the cusp of awakening.

Understanding doesn't really come until the shift takes place, then you will experience direct insight. Insight is wordless; it's a flash of recognition, a recognition of truth; it's a realization, a kind of "aha" moment - you can't make an "aha" moment come, it will come in its own time. From that insight, though, all those words will begin to make sense and you can understand what they are trying to say through them.

The question "Who/what am I?" isn't designed to bring you an answer from the mind. In fact, as long as you think you've found an answer from your mind you can be assured that you have actually missed it. Remember, everything from the mind is part of the world of form. The answer is not to be found from the mind because the answer is not some kind of form, some thought or idea. Instead, the answer comes when mind has exhausted itself in its search and simply gives up, or there has been the seeing/recognition of consciousness/awareness that thoughts arise in. In that moment of giving up mind ceases to function, and when that happens all that's left is awareness/consciousness - alertness, awakeness, stillness, silence. Or when consciousness/awareness is seen/recognized beneath the thought stream you've got the answer. So the question "Who/what am I?" is actually designed to turn attention back onto awareness itself.

If you don't want to do self-enquiry I would suggest this: get hold of the audio version of Stillness Speaks. Just listen to it with eyes closed without trying to get caught up in the explanations. At first you will find yourself trying to mentally understand it, and that's OK. But it's also perfectly OK to let go of trying to understand it and simply listen. Do this to the best of your ability - simply listen to the words and each time thought comes in to make sense of it return to the sound of the words. Pay attention to the pauses that are inbuilt into ET's reading; at some point you will realize that you are simply awake and alert, but no thoughts are present. That's it, that's the answer that's being sought, that quiet still awake alertness -- consciousness. Rest there a while and just be; soak in what You are.

Another option is to get the audio versions of Adyashanti's True Meditation or Spontaneous Awakening. Both of these have guided meditations that lead you into simply accepting everything as it is, without mentally manipulating anything at all. I cannot recommend either of these highly enough.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Ralph » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:53 am

Hi xtallman,

It appears to me that you are a sincere seeker and will do whatever it takes to get to the bottom of this. Your head is caught in the tigers mouth so there is no way of turning back, is there ? Do not get discouraged, it is all part of the process. You don't see it yet but you are on the right track because you are asking the right questions.

Perhaps this will help. I have posted this on another thread a while back and I think it fits well here.It is titled My Awakening by Osho. This may be the most vivid description ever written of what it feels like to become enlightened.

http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0015.htm
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Sighclone » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:26 am

Great additional notes from Ralph and the k-man.

chuck it all because I have no idea what else to do.


Do that...and when you do, surrender it completely. Take a month off. Or two. Give yourself a break. If the "seeking/not seeking" is causing some kind of tail-chasing, let it be.

If there is truth in advaita, deep recognizable simple truth, then it will survive your vacation from the seeking. Remember, Buddha awakened after he gave up.

But know that we all care about you and anyone who earnestly seeks as you are. Do thy self no harm for we are all here. (Acts 16:28) And we will be here after your break.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby xtallman » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:54 pm

Thank you, kiki, Sighclone, and Ralph for your kind and loving replies. I will do as you say - listen to the recordings, etc. There is some tiny part of me that resonates with what you all are saying, but it's very small and uncertain at this point. I do get very frustrated. I won't get into the whys and explanations and frustrations - I hear you all clearly that that is not the path, that it is not about figuring it out. Yes, that does leave me kind of lost - my whole life I have relied on my mind to bring me to truth, to save me from many mistakes and wrong roads - and it has for the most part worked. And now you're in essence asking me to toss that path out the window. I'm surprisingly not scared by that, I will always have my mind to come back to - I'm curious, but having great trouble even for a moment giving up my habit of trying to make sense of it all. It is so paradoxical. But I have heard this all before, from others whom I trust. I will look again inside. Thank you for not giving up on me.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Ralph » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:57 pm

And now you're in essence asking me to toss that path out the window.


... most importantly, you need to throw xtallman (who you think you are) out the window. When I threw Ralph (who I thought I was) out the window is when it became clear. But no worries, you won't disappear. You will just travel much lighter. What changes is the belief that you are a separate person is no longer there. The initial "I thought" needs to be looked at. You are not your thoughts.

I know this sounds like mumbo jumbo but you (your belief in who you think you are) is the obstacle that stands in the way of true seeing. I cannot say it enough. Give it some time and work on this "I" you take yourself to be.

Good luck, my friend.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby great2be » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:10 am

Hi xtallman
I was very taken by the sincerity in your questions.
Most people seem to be willing to accept ready answers. Unfortunately they just end up with a new set of ideas which have no value when meeting the realities of daily life.

I see a general misunderstanding in all those that replied to your questions, and that could be why you find no realisation in them.

In short, "there is no past and future" applies only psychologically.
Psychological time is a construct of thought only and has no independent reality.
Any action unwittingly based on non-reality creates illusion and suffering.

You see, most peoples actions are based on the idea of securing some kind of emotional/psychological security.
Put simply, the urge to guarantee happiness tomorrow. Or the urge to at least guarantee no unhappiness.
But you see, happiness can only be in the present, any fears about tomorrows happiness are actually causing unhappiness in the present.
As most of us are caught in the seeking mode, we experience the present as unpleasant/unfulfilled/something missing, and hope that the future will be better..... this is a catch 22 situation.
Of course, some people may be having a great deal of pleasure (which is not the same as happiness), but then they want to hold on to that (guarantee its continuance), and so the fear of loss is another expression of this same movement of psychological time.
When you see the truth of what I've stated above the seeking will end naturally, and your natural 'always there' happiness shines through.
Occasionally, someone just gives up hope when they feel they have tried all the various methods that they have come across to secure happiness/enlightenment/end of suffering without success. If they truly give up the search they suddenly have a 'peak experience'. Unfortunately, most don't realise why. For the really unfortunate, surrender then becomes a goal!!

I hope this helps.
An imaginary seeker, seeking an imaginary goal.
Realise the nature of imagination and the fallacious effort ends.

Have you ever seen a dog chasing it's tail?

What happens when the dog runs faster?
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Sighclone » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:50 am

trying to make sense of it all.


Of course your mind has served you well in life in society. Society is built by minds for minds....and it is not all bad. Many people have led satisfactory lives. But no mind has ever revealed the truth of pure awareness, nor will yours. But that is good. It is good because Being is universal and includes mind...and heart and all dimensions of space/time. It is at once impossibly complex and profoundly simple. It is the heart of paradox and enigma. It is the palette and the canvas, but "little you" are not the artist.

The deepest irony is that no one wakes up. Awareness awakens. And yes, that sounds like so much mumbo-jumbo. And that is good for several reasons: 1) mumbo-jumbo is not organizable by the mind, so the mind has to stand down. 2) the awakening experience is nonmental but comforting, familiar and brilliantly clear, 3) a frustrated mind is a sign that the end of its worldview is near!

And after awakening, those goofy Upanishads, Vedantic scriptures, Zen koans, transcendental visions and other mystical scriptures will suddenly resonate, and the experience "making sense of it" will be replaced by an intuitive sense of truth.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Yutso » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:16 pm

kiki you say "What You truly are is that consciousness, not any form that arises within consciousness, like a body or a mind."

Tolle writes on p 252. of A New Earth, "When you think, feel, percieve, and experience, consciousness is born into form. It is reincarnating---into a thought, a feeling, a sense perception, an experience."

So is not even our form also what we really are? Are we perhaps both truly form, (body, mind), and more then form, (pure consciosness)?
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Sighclone » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:14 pm

kiki will reply, I'm sure.

But my comments are: no, you are not any manifestation, any expression, any modulation of consciousness. They occur, yes, but they are not you. Especially, you are not your body or your mind. You can conceive of yourself as a body/mind, sure. The association of free will with the mind offers a tempting suggestion that "there is something unique and it feels like a self in here." Yup, that's true. But Eckhart reminds us that it is a false self created by unconscious identification with the mind. His discovery was that it is false because he discovered something much much larger that was his authentic Self.

Objects in form contain and reflect pure consciousness in their moment, yes, but even the collection of all thoughts and material objects, all living forms, all books, all feelings, all events, all universes -- none of them and no groups of them are pure awareness. And none of them are you (or me or kiki.).

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby kiki » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:20 pm

So is not even our form also what we really are? Are we perhaps both truly form, (body, mind), and more then form, (pure consciosness)?


This is something that is tricky to convey. Pure consciousness is formless but it expresses itself within form as body and mind. There is mind and body, but there is no separate you (what ET calls the ego, or "little me") inhabiting them. The you that believes itself to be separate is imaginary only. But when identification is locked into the form, when there is the belief in the "little me", then the underlying formlessness of pure consciousness is overlooked, and this is why people suffer and feel separate from everyone and everything else. As you awaken you realize that there is something transcendent to body and mind, and that is the witnessing consciousness. This is when there is a shift away from identification with body and mind and onto consciousness. Sometimes people get stuck in identifying with formlessness after that shift happens and they deny the reality of body and mind.

Later, you begin to realize that thoughts, sensations, bodies, minds, and objects are actually a kind of "dance" of consciousness itself (or as ET puts it, the reincarnation of consciousness), and that You (as consciousness) are not separate from any of it. In other words, the world of duality has dissolved, revealing the nondual nature of existence. There no longer is "me" and everything else, there is just "this".

"This" means there isn't any labeling or naming of anything; "this" encompasses everything. And in "this" there is no identification going on at all, nothing that says, "I am consciousness", or "I am everything", or anything like that. There is just the seamless experience of the oneness of consciousness ebbing and flowing within form and AS form. The forms are seen to change, but beneath them there is the unchanging felt presence of consciousness.

So in the very deepest sense You are not only consciousness but you are mind and body as well because ALL IS CONSCIOUSNESS. So it's a question of whether or not identification of any kind is going on. If there is, then you have become stuck somewhere.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby rideforever » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:40 pm

I think this conversation is really revealing the dishonesty of spiritual slogans like the "Present Moment".

There is no future ? But if you don't eat you will die. Try it, let me know how you will get on.

And there are the people who then use some way to explain how the present moment is everything even though it's not, mostly by using lost of vague words with made up reasons.

And then there is the constant reiteration of what ET said as demonstrated by SC and WW's posts. "The present moment is this, it is that, ET said it was this" etc...

But that's not the question at all. The question is about how can you prepare for the future when you are supposed to be always in the present moment and if you don't prepare you will die. It is about the connection between time and no-time, between thought and no-thought, between the manifested and un-manifested.

The truth is you don't know what the answer to this very important question - so you reach for spiritual slogans. Instead of being man enough to say so. In other words the spiritual slogans are used as a defense against a lack of clarity or completion. See that that is what is happening.

No ... don't start posting. Don't start guessing. I am not suggesting for you all to tell me what you guess the answer is. Or to use a lot of spaghetti reasoning interspersed with "awareness", "presence", "present moment". This is unconsciousness.

Yes, I would like to give you all a group hug. But I want the answer as well.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby rideforever » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:43 pm

kiki wrote:So it's a question of whether or not identification of any kind is going on. If there is, then you have become stuck somewhere.
To be manifested as a human being is to be stuck. If you are not identified you die. If you wanted to die you wouldn't have come here.
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