The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Ralph » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:58 pm

rideforever wrote:But that's not the question at all. The question is about how can you prepare for the future when you are supposed to be always in the present moment and if you don't prepare you will die. It is about the connection between time and no-time, between thought and no-thought, between the manifested and un-manifested.

The truth is you don't know what the answer to this very important question - so you reach for spiritual slogans. Instead of being man enough to say so. In other words the spiritual slogans are used as a defense against a lack of clarity or completion. See that that is what is happening.


..is it possible that maybe, just maybe, you don't know have a clue of what you are talking about and some do.... perhaps you should have a open mind and try to see where they are speaking from...can you be man enough to do that ?

...now let's have a group hug and sing gumbaya ! :)
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Sighclone » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:31 pm

I think we understood and answered Kutso's question as well as we could.

The truth is you don't know what the answer to this very important question


Assuming that this is your question:

The question is about how can you prepare for the future when you are supposed to be always in the present moment and if you don't prepare you will die.


Here is the answer: You are not your body. Your body will die. You will not die.

Read Stephen Levine's book "Who Dies" for an extended answer. It's about $4US, delivered on abebooks.com.

Andy
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There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby rideforever » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:22 pm

Sighclone wrote:
The question is about how can you prepare for the future when you are supposed to be always in the present moment and if you don't prepare you will die.

Here is the answer: You are not your body. Your body will die. You will not die.

No. Your body will not die, because it never lived.

But that still doesn't explain creation. You are just restating that the absolute exists - and who disagrees ?

But the question posed was what is creation, what is the relationship between creation and the unmanifested etc...

I won't ask you to buy a book, because I am not clutching an authority.

Ralph wrote:..is it possible that maybe, just maybe, you don't know have a clue of what you are talking about and some do.... perhaps you should have a open mind and try to see where they are speaking from...can you be man enough to do that ? ...now let's have a group hug and sing gumbaya ! :)

Perhaps you can talk about your own experience, rather than which authority on here you want to stand next to !
Last edited by rideforever on Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Ralph » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:07 am

rideforever wrote:Perhaps you can talk about your own experience, rather than which authority on here you want to stand next to !

Hey rideover, what smileyjen said to you in another thread is worth repeating here.

"You keep skimming across the surface of the lake saying I want to know what's at the bottom, but I don't want to get wet.

Dive in rideforever, the water's fine."


...perhaps if you dive in then maybe I will share my experience with you otherwise I'm just wasting my time and yours as well.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby xtallman » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:39 am

I'm sorry, I find this really annoying.

People here (and in many of the advita circuits) seem to have perfected the ability to make statements that sound profound, but that say absolutely nothing, and that no one really knows what it means - and because it sounds profound, people (at least I) find myself intimidated into silence. What on earth do these statements mean: "There is nothing but the present moment." "You will never die" "Your body never lived" "Dive in". And I hear a lot of putdowns of people trying their best to express the confusion inherent in these statements - like telling them maybe you have no clue of what you're talking about.

I find the questioners here asking simple, clear answers, and I hear others giving glib, "wise" answers that leaves a thinking person speechless ("Oh, yes, I know we're not supposed to think") I find a lot of disrespect for sincere seekers asking honest questions. It seems there is an attitude of non-concern, and spouting off some non-statement, and leaving the seeker with nothing to go on. (Oh, yes, when you have nothing to go on, you find the truth? Right?) On and on, justifying what is really an attitude of superiority.

I suspect the truth is much simpler than most of us make it to be, and it doesn't take non-sensical statements that leave a person completely lost to get there.

Sorry, this is a rant, I know, but I've just heard one too many gurus or their followers stand up and say "We're all one" with no explanation of what on earth that means. Or "You've already arrived, you just need to wake up and see it" and other non-such. The effect is to make the listener, if he is naive enough, to feel he doesn't understand, the guru must, because it sounds profound, so he better just stop asking, and accept that somehow what the guru says must be true. I've heard so many glib answers on this site, and I think it's an insult to people who struggle to articulate a very real dilemma, and there is no acknowledgement of the struggle, nor the difficulty of understanding the answer, nor the paradox of using english words to describe something non-verbal. There's not a lot of compassion shown. There's not a lot of humanness shown from those who sound like they are just floating all the time in some spiritual ecstasy, who utter a few words and think they've done their job, leaving us poor slobs who are stuck in our minds writhing on the floor in a puddle of words and confusion.

A simple example. It's horribly misleading to say there is no past, no future, only present. If one were to take that statement at its face value, as one of the contributers here said, there would be no reason to ever prepare for anything. There would be no reason to say, "I better save for the future" or "Let's do something about climate change." Whether or not there is some deeper, more profound meaning to the statement is besides the point; the fact is, that statement at face value is confusing and misleading, as this conversation shows. I don't hear anyone acknowledging that. Maybe the statement is just a really lousy way of saying, don't think about the future so much that you miss what's happening in the present. But no one would say it that simply, because it doesn't sound very profound, and they would lose their image of wisdom that seems so valued around here.

We can be present to our past, and present to our future, if "being present" simply means experiencing it without immediately throwing interpretation on top of it. That's not very complex or profound-sounding, but living that way has a deep impact on how we experience life. In my spiritual practice, I try to keep it simple, in simple terms that anyone can understand. The practice is difficult because we're not in the habit of it, not because the concepts are complex.

Okay, I will try to stop ranting now. I'm sure there are those who are well-meaning who are trying to express something that is inexpressible. But don't throw paradoxical phrases around as if that solves the dilemma for someone else. Recognize and acknowledge, with humility, the struggle of living and understanding life, not just intellectual understanding, but the deep intuitive understanding that we all want. It is not easy for any of us. Honor those of us who ask sincere questions, who are confused by the paradoxes presented by teachers such as Tolle. It is not easy to grasp, or there would have been no need for teachers. But don't just memorize cool phrases and toss them back to hungry seekers and then wipe your hands of us.

Thanks for listening.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby karmarider » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:48 am

xtallman, what you say is not a rant at all. It's representative of what many feel but are unable or unwilling to articulate.

Yes, spirituality is suffused with the ego. All these profound and pretty and glib sayings are irrelevant.

The irrefutable fact is that none of what has been said has been helpful to humanity in any significant way. Human beings have been deluded and unhappy at least since the advent of agriculture, about ten thousand years ago, and presumably even earlier than that. There is no practice or tradition or belief system which can claim even a small amount success at fixing this basic problem. Not advaita, not Buddhism, no new-age or neo-fangled movement, no tradition--not even Eckhart Tolle who has reached hundreds of millions with his simple language, can claim to have cured the basic fear in people in any significant way.

I agree with you. Some spiritual seekers are trapped in self-important concepts and terminology. Equally, you have to admit, others are trapped in their own frustration.

Some of us learn this the hard way. I spent four years as a spiritual seeker before I realized the very seeking was an obstacle. I would call you fortunate. Your insistence on calling out that the emperor has no clothes will serve you well.

And so, yes, because of the mis-direction around us, it can be frustrating. It can take some meandering before we realize it's not about spirituality, and it's not about taming the ego, and that thoughts are not a problem, and it's not about finding your real self, it's not about making awareness abiding, it's not about practicing presence, it's not about clever sayings, and it's not about believing this or that. It's not about understanding anything. It's not about subscribing to some beautifully balanced theory of the universe. All those endeavors may be beautiful and they may be self-validating and they may even be true--but they are irrelevant.

I suspect the truth is much simpler than most of us make it to be...


Yes it is.

Elsewhere in this thread there was talk about Ramana's simple technique of "Who am I."

The technique is completely self-reliant. It's as basic as it can get. No belief or understanding is required. No rejection of belief or understanding is required. You don't have to subscribe to or even tolerate pretty sayings and theories.

When Ramana (and Nisargadatta and others) suggested this technique, they might have thought that people will clearly understand what they mean, because really, what can be easier than to put attention on the very ordinary sense of you? But it turns out that people don't get it right away. I didn't get it for a few years because I had confused myself with the very things you warn against. Once the mind absorbs spiritual concepts, it will confuse this basic inquiry and make it into something else.

John Sherman is particularly good at clarifying this simple technique.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Sighclone » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:24 am

nor the paradox of using english words to describe something non-verbal. There's not a lot of compassion shown.


Wow.

I can remember at least 50 posts in which someone says that the linear, reductive and logical basis of most languages, especially English is a weak tool which gives us, necessarily, half-truth pointers.

Not a lot of compassion shown? How about virtually any of kiki's posts, or karmarider's, or Ananda's (who has gone off to an ashram for an extended time.)

Is discipline a form of love? Does the Zen master with a bamboo switch intend to hurt the pupil? Is a direct, terse reply always wrong?

The inevitable, arguably sad fact is that nonduality is poorly understood conceptually because fundamentally it is an experience -- a personal experience, not a logical system of thought. It only becomes a concept when we try to use language to talk about it. Language, let's see ... that is a verbal collection of concepts. Nonduality is not a religion. Not a dogma.

If we, any of us, drift into platitudes or echo-voicing, or recommend books, that is an expression of the inadequacy of language, and our struggles with it. It demonstrates our frustration at using this tool, language, developed by egoic minds, perhaps lovingly, to measure the unmeasurable. Virtually all of the classical and modern teachers refer to a personal experience, or an evolving transformation of consciousness as a beginning of their teaching. And then they all flop around with words and poems and even songs and drawings. I love the "Ten Bulls of Zen," for example.

It would be nice if simple study or lectures or books were sufficient to confer that unity experience on another. But that does not seem to be the case. Now I'm going to fail again: read Adyashanti's latest book "Falling into Grace." Something special happens. It may be a brief experience at a bus stop, or a blow-out mind-crushing smackdown like Eckhart's.

Then, believe it or not, the primary motivation for action is love. Even here.

I can only speak for myself, xtall. Doing that, I apologize. But I care, and I try.

Namaste,

Andy
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby rideforever » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:47 am

xtallman wrote:I'm sorry, I find this really annoying.People here (and in many of the advita circuits) seem to have perfected the ability to make statements that sound profound, but that say absolutely nothing

Totally agree.

The question here seems to me to be quite straightforwardly asked : "if there is no future how can I prepare my lesson plans for the future ?"

And just saying "ET said this", or "The Present Moment is all there is" ... is just a way of batting people away rather than attempting to reach the questioner or the question, or sharing experience.

And then Sighclone in his last post shows the 2nd approach commonly taken to bat away the question, which is : there is no answer, there is no point talking about it etc... Which is just not the case. Try ! These matters are penetrated and communicated deeply in some texts.

Personally it seems to me it opens up the question : if the absolute exists what is the purpose of creation ?

I feel that these questions need a certain maturing within you for a resolution to appear withinyou, and having a discussion about them, sharing your experience etc... can be a part of your maturation.

Hence, shutting down the question is harmful.
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:28 pm

Nobody shut down the question or subsequent questions rideforever.. it's five pages later and still the question is evolving.

To be fair, some questions are far from clear and appear to change substantially and switched. They have been answered with acknowledgement from most that it’s in their perspective, or from their experience and with humility and compassion that they are sharing their responses to progress a discussion.

I’ve yet to hear anyone here say this is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so swallow it or perish.

Just in this thread, posters were told their responses to the original question were inadequate because the question was the wrong question, which I now see recanted.. or is it?

1.
And then there is the constant reiteration of what ET said as demonstrated by SC and WW's posts. "The present moment is this, it is that, ET said it was this" etc...

But that's not the question at all. The question is about how can you prepare for the future when you are supposed to be always in the present moment and if you don't prepare you will die. It is about the connection between time and no-time, between thought and no-thought, between the manifested and un-manifested.




Then after saying if you don’t prepare you will die, another change of mind -

To be manifested as a human being is to be stuck. If you are not identified you die. If you wanted to die you wouldn't have come here.



Responders responded compassionately –

Sighclone said: Here is the answer: You are not your body. Your body will die. You will not die.


and received this reply – (I admit it, I’m confused as heck)

No. Your body will not die, because it never lived.


Then just for fun let’s change what the question was again –

But that still doesn't explain creation. You are just restating that the absolute exists - and who disagrees ?

But the question posed was what is creation, what is the relationship between creation and the unmanifested etc...



When was that question posed? I thought the question stated just a page before was -

(1 repeated) The question is about how can you prepare for the future when you are supposed to be always in the present moment and if you don't prepare you will die.



Except that
your body will not die because it never lived.


Oh and now we’re back to the original poster’s question
The question here seems to me to be quite straightforwardly asked : "if there is no future how can I prepare my lesson plans for the future ?"


or are we?
Personally it seems to me it opens up the question : if the absolute exists what is the purpose of creation ?

I feel that these questions need a certain maturing within you for a resolution to appear withinyou, and having a discussion about them, sharing your experience etc... can be a part of your maturation.


Perhaps you can talk about your own experience ...


I'd love to hear it rideforever - what's your answers to your questions?
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby rideforever » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:03 pm

I was responding to people's posts, each post referenced a different level of awareness. For instance from some levels you can say the body dies, from others that it never lived.

Ok ?
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:03 pm

I'm always ok : )

Step right on up rideforever you are in safe and supportive company here.

What's your answer to your question

" if the absolute exists what is the purpose of creation?" from your experience?

Tell us from your gut... what resonates as true for you?
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby rideforever » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:16 pm

It's a big question.

Some people like to go along with the beauty of life and trust that all will be well. Abraham/Bashar follow this approach. For me it's not clear that this is the right way.

From Anadi I have it that the manifest world is the purpose of existence, it is the meeting place for god to reflect god. And the path according to him is to develop the absolute state within you in such a way that it becomes complete, and then return to the manifest world in order to complete yourself in the world fulfilling your destiny. So through practice you become absolute in the unmanifested; but that is not the end, because finally you come back to the world and become completed here. The manifest world is ultimately The Point.

You see there have been discussion here about how to observe the pain body. Because when you go into detail it is not clear. What do you observe ? Your self ? The pain body ? Do you merge into it ? What happens exactly ? It seems to me both these things Anadi is talking about are happening at simultaneously in ET's teachings : by observing the pain body you observe both the inner (absolute) and outer (manifested) at the same time. ET is far less clear and structured then Anadi, but this seems to me to be what is occurring. And perhaps using simpler ideas works better with more people.

So from that I would say that creation is The Point. However work needs to be done at on the absolute/no mind/unmanifested first. For me this makes sense because it does not reject anything - it doesn't reject the mind the way many neo-advaitas think - and it doesn't reduce the path into "just do whatever you want"; or the endless talk about being in the present moment / no mind.

As for the Abraham/Bashar approach of following your desires. Not only is that not clear, but it is what every marketing agency says when selling soda pop. It seems dangerous to me.

Now Osho says the same thing : follow your desires, be unrestrained. However he also emphasised to a great degree meditation : in his communes for instance every day is scheduled 3.5 hours of meditation. So although he taught about following your desires, he made sure it was on a solid foundation. And indeed, doing 3.5 hours of meditation a day has a very strong effect.

I don't see Abraham/Bashar doing that; but I sense something good in Bashar. Abraham I know less.

So in relation to the question about the the future and preparing for your classes. There is no question that you prepare. Of course you do. But keep searching on the inside. Certainly development occurs on the inside and you just have to be patient before you see the full picture. And at any point you might find yourself ready to make a leap - if so just sit down and do it. And when you prepare for you classes there is no need to think that you are ignoring the present moment : just continue to bring practice in your life and it will change you. One day perhaps you will wake up and all there is is Now, and god be with you.

However, from my perspective, you see when we discuss how to approach our day to day existence and concerns about the future ... we are already making the assumption that there is someone 'home' who can operate. And there isn't. There is no solid ground - so all this talk of following your desires doesn't work - because your desires are built on unsolid ground. This is the point of developing the absolute first. The absolute is solid ground because it is absolute. And once you are on the solid ground you come back and blossom into the world - this is why the order is to develop the absolute first.

From a human perspective before the development of the absolute, a person is a captainless ship, just fragmentation, half-formed sub-personalities, brief snapshots of the unmanifested, feelings of love ... all confused together and built on unsolid ground. That for me is the meaning of the message :

In the beginning there was darkness. Let there be light.

-------------------------
Manifested : This is your life in the world
Unmanifested : This is the no-mind / present moment place
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:43 am

Thank you rideforever.

I don't know a thing about any of those other people you mentioned, but I feel I know your perspective a little more now, so thank you.

I tend not to look to teachers but to look at life/source as my guide who will bring me into line with opportunities to open in love, or close down in fear, and through the experience learn the wisdom or folly of my choices.

For the original question - if you are paying attention to readying your lesson notes you are present. If you are doing so with love - regardless of even if anyone shows up for the class, you are overflowing with joy.

If you are appreciative of all the elements that combine together to allow you that opportunity you can do anything in a state of enthusiasm. And in this state you are living the full potential of fluid source/creation incarnate from your perspective.

Regardless of where you are, what you're doing, you can be this full appreciation and willing perspective of creation.
Why I like Tolle's 'easy' explanation - he gets to this point in his books.

If you are making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of a thing you're closing yourself off from creation and will feel the discord until such time as you melt the armour of fear and this can only be done by accepting we're not the CEO of our universe. And in that acceptance - we've opened our door (portal) to creation/source to flow freely again.

So my sense of the answer to the question, from my experience -
" if the absolute exists what is the purpose of creation?"


To be alive in as many different perspectives as are willing to open the door.

- but I'd only be guessing, because I am only one perspective that receives the immense energy and connection with all when I am willing to open the door.

Tolles words ring true for me because I feel the difference in the range of states when I'm in different states, and I see the difference in others depending on their states.

I've come to embrace all of this with the same love and enthusiasm that I feel when I resonate in harmony with creation energy - which is why I am able to sincerely and knowingly say - no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.

I myself used to bang my head against the door saying why is this door here, why is this door here - now if I ever find I've closed that door I 'notice' the lack of harmony and go 'oops' and open the door, rather than banging my head against it.

Life is simple, it's only people that complicate it :wink:
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby Ralph » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:16 pm

xtallman wrote:I'm sorry, I find this really annoying.

Hey xtallman, you are, afterall, in a chatroom , what did you expect ? :)
There are people here from all different backgrounds speaking their views. Take what resonates for you and ignore the rest. If you are sincere and honest with your questions, you have some people here that will respond back to you in the same way.

xtallman wrote:People here (and in many of the advaita circuits) seem to have perfected the ability to make statements that sound profound, but that say absolutely nothing, and that no one really knows what it means - and because it sounds profound, people (at least I) find myself intimidated into silence. What on earth do these statements mean: "There is nothing but the present moment." "You will never die" "Your body never lived" "Dive in". And I hear a lot of putdowns of people trying their best to express the confusion inherent in these statements - like telling them maybe you have no clue of what you're talking about.

I suggest you be patient and with time these statements that sound profound and say absolutely nothing will eventually make sense to you. These statements or pointers are not meant to be understood by the mind but more accurately they will resonate with you . in other words, it's more of a recognition/realization than an understanding.

Here is a quote from Nisargadatta that I think fits well here with what I am trying to get across:

“You seem to want instant insight, forgetting that the instant is always preceded by a long preparation. The fruit falls suddenly, but the ripening takes time.”

~ Nisargadatta
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Re: The Only THing I Have To Deal With Is The Present Moment

Postby rideforever » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:03 pm

Ralph wrote:I suggest you be patient and with time these statements that sound profound and say absolutely nothing will eventually make sense to you.

How on Earth can you say this ? Are you taking responsibility for what people in general are saying on this forum ? Do you vouch for their sincerity ?

Xtallman says that he finds himself intimidated into silence, and Ralph your response to this is "say absolutely nothing". I think this is completely unhelpful.
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