Conscious of Consciousness

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
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smiileyjen101
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by smiileyjen101 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:08 am

What's an orgasm?
:lol: just another bliss that we try to define and create road maps to when its already here just being its beautiful self.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

garuda
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by garuda » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:08 am

KPO wrote: To me, the 'conscious mind' can become aware/conscious of Consciousness; but that is not the same as Consciousness becoming conscious of itself.
For that to happen, it seems to me, Consciousness would have to have a thinking mind of its own.
KPO wrote: I'm afraid I'm lost. Sun, moon, subject/object. Oh dear; back to the bottom of the class.
The others have posted the truth in a more concise, brief form. But sometimes this is not so easy to understand immediately unless you are very ripe for understanding. So I venture a longer version.... which may in fact confuse you even more. But I'll try to explain it in a slightly different way, so here goes.

This involves a very, very subtle understanding of how awareness is always “awaring” and can subtly feel or sense itself to exist -- which best occurs when the mind (thoughts are movements of the mind) is most still and quiet. This awareness is the intelligence (not mind thoughts) that perceives the manifestations that are in fact aspects of the ground of this Being-Consciousness-Awareness.

It is difficult to hear it explained and then understand its meaning because, as Ananda points out, the mind (of thoughts) cannot comprehend the vastness and subtle nature of this Consciousness (Awareness). And because the mind is too limited to understand this direct experience intellectually, the Awareness can best sense Itself as Awareness when the mind (of thoughts) is still and quiet. Because it's the thoughts of the mind that obscure the Awareness being aware if Itself (sort of).

It’s actually best to utilize words of explanation to describe the technique or inquiry used to achieve the sense-feeling directly, rather than trying to explain or appeal to a mind that is incapable of understanding it. But your personal curiosity asks the question, and we feel a certain obligation to at least offer an intellectual explanation that admittedly falls far short of giving you the direct sense-experience of Awareness Itelf. And technically, this is even somewhat false and potentially misleading, because at the moment of the direct experience, there won’t be a “you-mind” present there to know about it (as an object of knowldge or expereince). Only the Awareness is there and is capable of sensing Itself to exist without any logical, thoughtful mind to congeal it as an object and then understand it as intellectual knowledge of the mind.

That direct “no-you” experience of pure Awareness being aware of Itself will be recorded in the mind’s (or brain’s) memory for later remembrance; but precisely at the moments of the pure Awareness happening, there is no thoughtful you-consciousness to congeal it into an object of consciousness.... Because the mind of thoughts is still, quiet, motionless without thoughts. So there is no intellectual knowing that can possibly congeal it into an object separate from the awareness. And remember that what I am saying here now appeals only to the intellectual mind that is incapable of mentally reconstructing the direct sense of this pristine Awareness experience in which no thoughts or “you” exist in that present moment of the direct experience.

And I refer to it here as an “experience.” But technically it is better stated as a “no experience-experience” because there is no “you” (the experiencer) there to be experiencing it. In other words, to have an experience, logically you must also have an experiencer. And there is none during the Awareness awaring Itself as pure Awareness. So more accurately it is called the “no experience-experience” to be technically correct. But for ease of conveying the description we simply call it an experience (which it is not).

If the several short concise versions above and this longer version have not penetrated your understanding, then I can only recomend some suitable technique that allows the mind to become perfectly quiet and allow the insightful happening to occur on its own (and so long as you have absolutely no desire or expectations for it happening). Because any hope or expectation will only be an obstacle to the happening (direct experience).
Recognize present awareness......... rest in that awareness..........don’t become distracted.

KPO
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by KPO » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:48 am

Thank you all for your responses.
ananda
You say that the mind is not conscious in and of itself. I agree. Would you accept though,that the mind is, none the less, made conscious by the conscious self, the i? and, if you agree, then that the mind (made conscious by the conscious self) can function as if it were itself a separate conscious entity?
I'm trying to find a stepping-stone of agreement.
No subject/object stuff PLEASE.

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Ananda
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by Ananda » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:39 am

Hello folks

Great post, Garuda :)



KPO,
Would you accept though,that the mind is, none the less, made conscious by the conscious self, the i? and, if you agree, then that the mind (made conscious by the conscious self) can function as if it were itself a separate conscious entity?
Well, we agree that the mind is not conscious in and of itself, but I would go one step further and suggest that the mind is not conscious at all- it only appears so because consciousness itself is present whenever the mind is or is not being stimulated. An analogy would be that of a pool of water which holds the reflection of the sun in it. Whenever the water is stirred it appears as if the sun is also stirring, but the reality is that the sun is not really in the water, nor is it stirring, it is only the reflected light of the sun that makes this appear so. In the same way the mind is not really conscious, it is just the presence of consciousness behind the stream of thinking that gives us the impression of a 'conscious mind'.

The mind appears to be conscious because of consciousness, however there isn't really any actual borrowing or separate consciousness to be attributed to the mind, and the mind has no existence at all outside of consciousness.

:)

KPO
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by KPO » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:35 pm

Garuda.
So what you are saying is: silence the mind (if you are able) and what is left is sence-of-self (which is always there). Well of course. Thats what Tolle keeps saying is'nt it. I'm sure we all keep trying for that, with varying degrees of success.

KPO
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by KPO » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:45 pm

The only thing one "knows" about mind is that it behaves just as it would if it were an independent conscious entity. How that happens we, as mere human beings, cannot know. I am sure that the majority (the relatively silent majority) of members, will agree. How could they not. It is what they experience every living moment.

Any suggestion that consciousness may be "below the stream of thinking",(wow); above, to the side, around the corner, shining a light on, whatever, is pure fantasy. Egoic mind running amok.

We should mock ourselves occasionally; it might save others doing it for us; and it stops us taking ourselves too seriously.

"A wise man knows when to be silent". (Sorry; I just made that up)

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Ananda
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by Ananda » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:04 pm

Any suggestion that consciousness may be "below the stream of thinking",(wow); above, to the side, around the corner, shining a light on, whatever, is pure fantasy. Egoic mind running amok.
We say 'behind' or 'prior to' the stream of thinking not in terms of spatial dimension but in terms of experience and knowledge. Consciousness is first existing, then mind is known to exist- not the other way round. If you say that consciousness does not 'shine a light on' ie illuminate or make known the existence of the mind then your assertion is false because mind as the stream of thinking is known to you through experience, it is an object of your knowledge. If you insist that consciousness does not illuminate the mind then I must ask you; How do you know the mind exists? By what means of knowledge is the existence of the mind and the stream of thinking known to be? How can you talk about the mind, or the stream of thinking, as an experience, if it is not you as consciousness which brings it to light and objectifies it?

Furthermore, I don't see why such a statement should be regarded as 'pure fantasy' or 'egoic mind running amok'; what does it have to do with ego? I find it interesting that you say such statements are fantasy but just previously said, " How that happens we, as mere human beings, cannot know" thereby waxing lyrical on the impossibility of knowledge regarding the behaviour of mind. Fantasy indeed.

KPO
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by KPO » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:00 am

Having posted the above I sat down to read Tolle. I suddenly realized that my own post had been totally egoic; quite a shock .That realization had an amazing effect on me; so all is not lost. I'm sorry I can't reply to you Ananda, it would only be my ego returning. You're probably right anyway. This feels quite good.

harstine
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by harstine » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:01 am

I like simplicity. To be conscious, remove what is in the way. To be enlightened, remove what is in the way. It is easy to find things (Judgements, attachments, etc.) blocking your path. Quit searching for what you seek, we are there already.

gordon8888
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Re: Conscious of Consciousness

Post by gordon8888 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:27 am

KPO wrote:Tolle states (TPON. P.81) : "------- we could say that presence means Consciousness becoming conscious of it self-------".
I have problems with that. To me, the 'conscious mind' can become aware/conscious of Consciousness; but that is not the same as Consciousness becoming conscious of itself.
For that to happen, it seems to me, Consciousness would have to have a thinking mind of its own.
The human mind is only a small part of the greater Consciouness....by being conscious of Consciousness, you've moved beyond the thinking mind....You could call it Prescence.

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