For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
eckhart01
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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by eckhart01 » Sat May 28, 2011 7:40 pm

Yes, absolutely. Everything you said is true. Even here, 98% of this forum (if not more) is probably still conceptualizing the teachings, even if they believe they have attained 'something'. But that is not for us to concern ourselves with. The only one that benefits from presence is he who experiences it. Validating it becomes irrelevant. Yet even those who walk around thinking they are enlightened and have understood everything will still feel lack of completeness. We can only hope that realize this consciously.

Those who have glimpsed something can testify that to misunderstand the teachings, even when they are spelled out for you, is the easiest thing and in many ways the most attractive thing to a spiritual seeker. But of course, it would be counterproductive for any teacher to say this outright. They have a job in knowing that who they are speaking to is incredibly indulgent when it comes to content, and that they are constantly fighting a battle to keep minds on their side, figuratively speaking.

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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by hanss » Sat May 28, 2011 8:16 pm

usernameless wrote:Perhaps Tolle didn't have a living Guru. Perhaps he is one of those very few who don't need a physical guru in this life, due to work done in previous lives with a Guru. Or he isn't fully realised. Who really knows for sure? Only another jnani we are told.
ET:
I met and listened to some teachers that helped me understand my own state. In the beginning there was a Buddhist monk, Achan Sumedo, abbot of two or three monasteries in England. He's a Western-born Buddhist.

And in London I spent some time with Barry Long. I also understood things more deeply, simply through listening and having some conversations with him. And there were other teachers who were just as meaningful whom I never met in person that I feel a very strong connection to. One is [J.] Krishnamurti, and another is Ramana Maharshi. I feel a deep link. And I feel actually that the work I do is a coming together of the teaching "stream," if you want to call it that, of Krishnamurti and Ramana Maharshi. They seem very, very dissimilar, but I feel that in my teaching the two merge into one. It is the heart of Ramana Maharshi, and Krishnamurti's ability to see the false, as such and point out how it works. So Krishnamurti and Ramana Maharshi, I love them deeply. I feel completely at One with them. And it is a continuation of the teaching.
He picked up a lot of stuff from Barry long. Who talked a lot about the Now/present moment. The concept Pain body is probably from B.L's little Pygmy. Even the cat watching the mouse hole :)
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
(Eckhart Tolle)

snowheight
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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by snowheight » Sat May 28, 2011 9:01 pm

I speculate that perhaps Tolle embodies a macroscopic cultural paradox of a sort.

He was raised in Europe, with a history of a dominant spiritual practice rooted, at least for lay practitioners, in duality.

Has this culture generated relatively more psychic pollution over time due to some sort of deeper collective unconsciousness? A related and converse question would be whether or not organizing this culture around lines that were at least, for certain times, clear-cut between "good" and "evil" resulted in the relative material, scientific and technological progress which led to it's projection beyond it's native borders.

What is the result of intense suffering?

The thesis that Tolle's relatively psychically-toxic environment resulted in his sudden enlightenment and profound teaching is the statement of the paradox.
usernameless wrote:So paradoxical and mysterious. Words fail. Always do.

If this isn't the teaching regarding the state of the jnani, I gladly welcome others to step in and clarify.
And no, I haven't a clue from eprsonal experience.
You got me. Busted.
Love that man ... I'm wishing there was an applause emoticon here. :lol:

From my personal perspective, before I picked up TPON, words such as "enlightenment" and "seeking" were just another set of laughable spiritual bullshit that would elicit oscillation between tolerance and amused contempt. Bought the book 'cause I thought it would help with insomnia -- although it was the concepts embodied in modern physics which framed the doorway for the mind to accept the message.

So now instead of scoffing or dismissing I read exchanges like the one above with gratitude and the mind marvels over the richness embodied by the millenia's of treatment on this topic by multiple cultures ... I know that I'll never read or experience even a fraction of it. It's all visible, every single last line of it, through the narrow view of the mousehole.
Webwanderer wrote:Some even seem to like this forum for that role... at least in part. Crazy huh? But whatever works.
Reading and spewing here are the closest that I've ever been and the closest I'll ever be to participating in any organized practice. I accept your diagnosis doctor. :D
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Webwanderer
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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by Webwanderer » Sat May 28, 2011 9:30 pm

usernameless wrote:And the thing is, if someone isn't fully realised, no matter how far along they may be, there is a very real danger of falling back, growing a massive spiritual ego, stopping short of the goal and mistaking it for the end, misguiding others, and all the rest. In a simplified way, ideally, all of these so called awakened teachers and seekers, need to find one of these living jnanis and really spend some time, to see if they are actually finished or not.
Does anyone in this earthly experience ever become 'fully realized'? How would one know? Because they said so? Because someone else said so? Because you believe it so simply because they impressed you? The most one can sense is that this or that teacher says things that bring clarity to our own experience. What more can one ask of another than a useful pointer? I don't think gurus offer enlightenment pills, Timothy Leary not withstanding. Everyone is a teacher, and if they're wise, everyone is a student.

Even if what you say were true, that there are but a handful of 'fully realized' beings on earth at any one time, what good would that do the vast majority of those interested in discovery of their true nature? Fortunately life is far more accommodating than that. We are all linked together hand in hand, each of us able to help someone somewhere sometime if we but share the best of our understanding with humility. Sometimes simply sharing who we are is more positively influential than anything we might say. We simply have to be open to the subtle glimpses of greater clarity when they arise in our experience.

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life". Was he referring to himself or was he pointing to the presence awareness of "I am". Seems clear enough in light of our current explorations. I wonder if he was fully realized...

WW

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Onceler
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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by Onceler » Sun May 29, 2011 1:03 pm

Really good post, WW. I think many put way to much pressure on themselves to awaken, only increasing suffering & stress. I know that was how it was for me. Life is much more enjoyable without this pressure & glimpses of clarity engender gratitude not craving more.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by smiileyjen101 » Mon May 30, 2011 1:19 am

Really good post, WW. I think many put way to much pressure on themselves to awaken, only increasing suffering & stress. I know that was how it was for me. Life is much more enjoyable without this pressure & glimpses of clarity engender gratitude not craving more.
Hear hear! Very much agreed Onceler.

Gratitude is the opening through which joy can stream and lighten our way.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by Webwanderer » Mon May 30, 2011 4:31 pm

Onceler wrote:Really good post, WW. I think many put way to much pressure on themselves to awaken, only increasing suffering & stress. I know that was how it was for me. Life is much more enjoyable without this pressure & glimpses of clarity engender gratitude not craving more.
I agree Onceler. Far too many suffer with the expectations of 'should' in their own awakening. Gratitude, as pointed out by our friend Smileyjen, shines a light on the path out of our blindness. There's no where to go of course. That light merely reveals the subtle beauty right in front of us. William Samuel wrote of his experience in China running for his life from the advance Japanese army. While he was frightened out of his wits, his companion and teacher was commenting on the beauty of the spring bloom. Both had their life on the line, but one was enjoying the momentary sense of gratitude for the beauty they passed by.

Seems there is always something to appreciate.

WW

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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by Sighclone » Mon May 30, 2011 8:07 pm

Always a pleasure to hear from you Onceler!

Just reading this, with the note about "releasing the pressure to awaken" or whatever, I am reminded of the Buddha. It was not until he just let it all go that Grace intervened and he awoke. His next comment, I understand, was something like "this cannot be taught." But it could be learned (he did) so he continued to "teach/not teach" or whatever.

And WW, your comments about who is awake, and what is the test, is important. But I think we do have at least one measure...that of suffering. If there is less, then there is progress. And that said, surely a few dollars in the pocket of a homeless person, the correct medication for a person with a physical disorder, really great psychotherapy which provides some relief, a healthy meal for a hungry man or woman...those also relieve suffering. But this forum, and this topic is about a different level of suffering -- existential suffering. And, in my opinion, only the experience of spiritual growth and awareness provides relief from that.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by suraj » Tue May 31, 2011 12:53 am

If enlightenment is not personal, is "anyone" really enlightened as long as the millions are not ? Does one wave realizing its oneness with the ocean with so many countless waves still around all that important?
Aren't we all part of one life ? Isn't it why some saints, I have heard choose to reincarnate to help others cross the sea.
I AM

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HandfullaMinerals
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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by HandfullaMinerals » Tue May 31, 2011 12:13 pm

suraj wrote:If enlightenment is not personal, is "anyone" really enlightened as long as the millions are not ? Does one wave realizing its oneness with the ocean with so many countless waves still around all that important?
Aren't we all part of one life ? Isn't it why some saints, I have heard choose to reincarnate to help others cross the sea.
I'm not sure about how helpful I will be in this, but that part about the millions is something even I would like to add to. What if 1 person attains (attains?) full self-realisation, and at the same moment 1000 more unconsious people are born across the earth?

Again, I question the value of this to you but maybe it might help...
If for even a few minutes you realise oneness with the ocean. Look around you, everything is now, it will never be not in the now. Hundreds of people in whom thought arises, like a chemical reaction, and subsides there and then. There is no real consistency. Or the only consistency is inconsistency.
It is the ego which raises difficulties, creating obstacles and then suffers from the perplexity of apparent paradoxes. Find out who makes the enquiries and the Self will be found.

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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by suraj » Tue May 31, 2011 1:55 pm

And if the original question of the post meant if Tolle could get out of suffering, anxiety and depression , then why can't the other millions? Then the millions others have to question their suffering ; question what causes the suffering . Isn't the belief in our thoughts the root of our suffering ?
But is everybody willing to listen to this message ? Or understand even after they have listened to this?
As Tolle says suffering is necessary to make you realize that it's not necesssary.
I AM

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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by Sighclone » Tue May 31, 2011 6:02 pm

After consulting with our member usernameless, I'm posting his PM question to me and my reply, below:
Thanks for the info Andy.
A few things I didn't understand.
And by Grace, I mean something you know to be completely external to you. Yes, that sounds dualistic, and it is until it happens, because then, a tiny particle of that grace, or "Sourcebeam" remains with you.
Do you mean that Grace appears to come from the outside, like from contact with a teacher for example?

And by "sourcebeam", you mean transmission basically right?
There may be some unconscious fixations that someone can help you get past.
What do you mean by "unconscious fixations"?
Yes, grace appears to be external...("Something happened to me.") But the event of awakening is one in which your sense of a personal discrete self dissolves so completely that there is nothing which is "external to you", because there is nothing left to be external to.

And after awakening, you contain everything including Grace and the Source of Grace. What remains is simply a question of energy flows. (Although I've had experiences, these comments also reflect my reading of other teachings, especially, in this case, Jac O'Keeffe -- her website is here: http://www.jackieokeeffe.com/index.html.)

By using the phrase "Sourcebeam" I am borrowing from Nanci Danison ("Backwards") -- I'm not referring to transmission between guru and student, really, but more, just the fact that grace becomes part of who you are...you radiate a bit of it.

By "unconscious fixations," I'm referring to mental habits and beliefs which get imbedded in our behavior patterns after years of conditioning. Peter Fenner in "Radiant Mind," explores this at great length.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Gerald
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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by Gerald » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:24 am

I think that achieving what Tolle has achieved (to be totally in the now) maybe rare and I suppose should be my ambition - but it's not. The important thing for me is to understand Tolle's teachings to the extent that I can live easier with myself. Just being able to monitor and switch-off constant thinking is a big step forward for me. The other thing is to accept the now (even if it is unpleasant - like loneliness) as if you had chosen it. What was tough for me to read in TPON was that medication, drugs, and alcohol etc are obstacles in the way of attaining the now. I understand that the statement is true but it has meant some serious adjustments in my life. Just because millions don't make it like Tolle did, doesn't mean that his teachings are any less potent indeed as we know they are inspiring and just that is wonderful for me.

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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by usernameless » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:23 pm

Just being able to monitor and switch-off constant thinking is a big step forward for me. The other thing is to accept the now (even if it is unpleasant - like loneliness) as if you had chosen it.


Hi Gerald,

I would say definitely to the first part. Any improvement in your life due to the teachings is a blessing. Forget realisation, many people, maybe most, would do really really well with finding basic balance, grounding, happiness, some good relationships, you know, the fundamental elements of life. Basic awareness can help to achieve this.

For the second part, can you clarify what you mean about loneliness?

Thanks

Gerald
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Re: For every Tolle, Millions who Don't Make It

Post by Gerald » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:13 am

Thanks for your reply usernamless.

Due possibly to an extremely insecure childhood (Mother was schizophrenic) father had difficulties, I was left alone a lot as a child. I believe this caused substantial insecurities in me and a fed my pain-body. I might also be carrying some of my mothers pain. I have suffered from angst and depression since 16. When I am alone as I am often these days my pain-body takes me over in such as way that it is physically painful usually in my abdomen area. However, since reading PON I am learning to detach from the mind more and more. I am confident that when the gap between the mind and my Being is sufficient I will feel better. If you want to discuss this further through PM I would appreciate it. Kindest regards Gerald

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