Suicide vs Egocide

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rachMiel
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by rachMiel » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:57 pm

Are you by any chance a "recovering Catholic?" ;-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

epiphany55
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by epiphany55 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:58 pm

rachMiel wrote:Are you by any chance a "recovering Catholic?" ;-)
Haha, no I've been a non-believer my whole life. Oh how easy it would be if I were raised catholic.

Me: Father, I have sinned.

Priest: All is forgiven!
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

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dijmart
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by dijmart » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:33 pm

epiphany55 wrote:Thanks all for the advice. I will seek therapy, but I understand I need to be rather selective over the therapist I go with.
FYI- I will to tell you that therapist's, nurses, doctors have what's called a "duty to report" or "manditory reporting". That means that if what you have done was physical abuse or negligence to a child or caused damage/negligence, physically or mentally to an adult that could not protect themself (elderly, handicapped, ect) they will report it to the proper authorities.

I'm a mandated reporter because I am a nurse. I have so far only had to report negligence to either child protective services or adult protective services. But, you need to know this can and will happen, if what you did falls in these catagories.

I'm not trying to sway you from getting help, but wanted you to be aware of manditory reporting.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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rachMiel
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by rachMiel » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:44 pm

epiphany55 wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Are you by any chance a "recovering Catholic?" ;-)
Haha, no I've been a non-believer my whole life. Oh how easy it would be if I were raised catholic.

Me: Father, I have sinned.

Priest: All is forgiven!
Perhaps you could convert, confess EVERYTHING (past, present, future), be forgiven, then un-convert? Catholicism has scammed people for centuries; scamming it back seems like poetic justice. ;-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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dijmart
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by dijmart » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:51 pm

rachMiel wrote:
epiphany55 wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Are you by any chance a "recovering Catholic?" ;-)
Haha, no I've been a non-believer my whole life. Oh how easy it would be if I were raised catholic.

Me: Father, I have sinned.

Priest: All is forgiven!
Perhaps you could convert, confess EVERYTHING (past, present, future), be forgiven, then un-convert? Catholicism has scammed people for centuries; scamming it back seems like poetic justice. ;-)
Yeah, and I don't think they're mandated reporters either!
Take what you like and leave the rest.

epiphany55
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by epiphany55 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:20 pm

:lol: Thanks for getting a lol out of me.

It would certainly be a kind of forgiveness, but an empty one. I already have that in a way - the universe doesn't "care" what we do, so no forgiveness is necessary in an objective sense. So I guess what I'm looking for is acceptance from fellow human beings that I am a different person now.

Might this be the ego's narcissism looking for approval? Do I need to devalue that aspect of forgiveness?
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

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rachMiel
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by rachMiel » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:34 pm

epiphany55 wrote:So I guess what I'm looking for is acceptance from fellow human beings that I am a different person now.

Might this be the ego's narcissism looking for approval? Do I need to devalue that aspect of forgiveness?
I don't know about narcissism, though if you suspect that, it's probably a useful clue for you.

It sounds to me like emotional dependency, a need to be accepted and certified as "a good person, name cleared, forgiven" by others. That need for acceptance is imo worth gazing deeply upon. Why does it matter so much what others think of you?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

epiphany55
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by epiphany55 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:25 am

rachMiel wrote:It sounds to me like emotional dependency, a need to be accepted and certified as "a good person, name cleared, forgiven" by others. That need for acceptance is imo worth gazing deeply upon. Why does it matter so much what others think of you?
Yes, that is getting warm. A lot of the anxiety comes from feeling like I'm a fraud when I speak to other people, and especially if I do a good deed for someone. I feel like any kind of gratitude or recognition of me being a decent person, in the present, is dependent on my not revealing my past. I feel like I'm being disingenuous, withholding a truth that people have a right to know about me, so they can make an informed judgement about whether they want to be associated with "such a person".

I know it sounds silly, but while people on this forum are wayyy above judging people by their past (and I love you all for that!), the people who are closest to me are still very much identified with it. These are my friends and family. I don't want to spread the shame to my parents, who might feel like failures if they knew the truth. I don't want them to feel that pain. So I keep quiet and play the "innocent son".
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

Maire
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by Maire » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:39 am

Hello Epiphany55, I've been following your thread with interest.

I think your ego has made a whole new self out of this episode. Maybe more than one? The one who is judging you. The one who is defending you. And you.

You can't tell people who know you what you did because they might not forgive you and it might cause problems for others like your relatives so you carry this burden alone. For that, therapy might be a good idea.

You are telling people here that you did something but nobody knows what. Sometimes you have said "no long-term damage was done". Then people say - forgive yourself, seek therapy, move on. So "no long-term damage" rules out a few things.

Try to look at what you did impartially. Stop making excuses. Look honestly at what really happened, however bad it is. Don't say "other people do worse things, its not that bad". What was it in you that made you do it? Greed? Anger? Lust? It will be obvious to you. Don't glorify it and make it an evil monster self. Use your mind in this case as an impartial assessor of the situation. The apologist in you is saying "some evil devil possessed me and made me do it" but it was really just one of those human deviations - greed, anger, lust - or something else in that family. That is the beginning and end of it. You gave in to one of the above instead of doing the right thing and controlling yourself.

The logical mind has it's uses - assess the situation objectively. Obviously, you have decided it was bad. Are you sorry? Can you now control the impulse or compulsion that drove your action in the first place? You wont do it again?

You can't turn back the clock and that is what you really want. If you are satisfied that you are now living your life as a good person, according to the dictates of your conscience and keeping the social laws and rules that help protect people - then walk on. You can always feel that weight on your shoulders? Well, carry it - that is your reminder to yourself of how you want to behave for the rest of your life. You will put it down when you don't need it any more.
I have lived with several zen masters - all of them cats. - Eckhart Tolle

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dijmart
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by dijmart » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:41 am

Ok, so you did something bad, wrong, horrible...is it over and done with? nothing you can do to take it back? This may sound unthinkable but how about putting your attention on forgiving yourself, without needing it from another soul. In the end, it's your own forgiveness that really matters. If you are never going to do whatever it was again, then there is not the chance it will repeat and if that's the case, then forgive yourself, so you can move forward and do good without feeling guilty.

True forgiveness is seeing that there never was anything to forgive. You were too unconscious to do any better at that time. (I believe E.T. said this)
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peas
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by peas » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:47 am

Something in you is addicted to drama. That's true for all of us.

You can't get better and longer lasting drama than guilt. "Ah, perfect!", says the ego.

epiphany55
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by epiphany55 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:52 am

Maire wrote:Try to look at what you did impartially. Stop making excuses. Look honestly at what really happened, however bad it is. Don't say "other people do worse things, its not that bad". What was it in you that made you do it? Greed? Anger? Lust? It will be obvious to you. Don't glorify it and make it an evil monster self. Use your mind in this case as an impartial assessor of the situation. The apologist in you is saying "some evil devil possessed me and made me do it" but it was really just one of those human deviations - greed, anger, lust - or something else in that family. That is the beginning and end of it. You gave in to one of the above instead of doing the right thing and controlling yourself.
Thank you. Yes I feel it must boil down to one of those feelings, perhaps jealousy. Can this all happen unconsciously?
Maire wrote:The logical mind has it's uses - assess the situation objectively. Obviously, you have decided it was bad. Are you sorry? Can you now control the impulse or compulsion that drove your action in the first place? You wont do it again?
I am sorry and feeling how I do now means that there is no way I could ever do it again. I am now very conscious of satisfying my own desires. I'm starting to let go of impulsive forms of pleasure because they don't do as much for me any more. I'm sure I've lost weight because I've lost that desire to indulge like I used to.

I can see myself living a much simpler, more humble life. But I do miss that feeling of innocence, and the resulting peace of mind that only people with a clear conscience have. That's the biggest piece missing from me.
dijmart wrote:True forgiveness is seeing that there never was anything to forgive. You were too unconscious to do any better at that time. (I believe E.T. said this)
I still struggle with this idea that everyone who has done harm did so unconsciously. If I could fully accept that, I can't imagine I would feel any guilt. So maybe part of me doesn't want to accept it because it feels too easy a way to let myself off the hook. I would rather accept full responsibility.
peas wrote:Something in you is addicted to drama. That's true for all of us.

You can't get better and longer lasting drama than guilt. "Ah, perfect!", says the ego.
I want to do what Edward Norton did at the end of Fight Club. Without putting a hole in my face in the process.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

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rachMiel
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by rachMiel » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:04 am

epiphany55 wrote:A lot of the anxiety comes from feeling like I'm a fraud when I speak to other people, and especially if I do a good deed for someone. I feel like any kind of gratitude or recognition of me being a decent person, in the present, is dependent on my not revealing my past. I feel like I'm being disingenuous, withholding a truth that people have a right to know about me, so they can make an informed judgement about whether they want to be associated with "such a person".
It sounds like you're really locked into this story of yourself as a person guilty of a crime and deserving of punishment. I guess it has to play itself out before you can be free of it and move on. A good therapist will help.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

peas
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by peas » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:43 am

epiphany55 wrote:
peas wrote:Something in you is addicted to drama. That's true for all of us.

You can't get better and longer lasting drama than guilt. "Ah, perfect!", says the ego.
I want to do what Edward Norton did at the end of Fight Club. Without putting a hole in my face in the process.
At risk of a spoiler, what did EN do at the end of Fight Club?

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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by tomtom1 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:09 pm

This topic has peaked my interest :) sounds to me like you are putting yourself through hell!

I have read a few times now that 'everyone does the best they can at the time' and I really think this is true. Whatever you did it's on only the 'you' that you think you are which ever had a choice not to do it. You are life and it flows in mysterious ways. How can you judge what happened? How do you know that whatever you did was not the catalyst for great transformation in someone else's life? Can you really know that what you did only had bad effects?
Look back at all the so called 'bad' things which have happened to you in life. Have they really all been bad or have some pushed you to greater things?

The world needs suffering. Without there is no transformation and progress.
It doesn't matter if every person in the world sent you an email saying what you did was ok, you would still feel bad because this is all inside. Perhaps you feel you need the approval of others? You are delegating responsibility for you feeling better to the 'outside' rather than acknowledging that it is your own forgiveness and love you require.

On a practical note when you say you feel a fraud when people are talking to you like if they knew what you did they would not want to be friends with you? Bear in mind that everyone has this. You can never really know everything about someone you are talking to. Whatever you tell them they can never really know 'you' because they will always project themselves onto you and visa versa. Try asking yourself 'can I really know that they wouldn't want to know me if they knew this secret?' If you look honestly the answer will always be no.

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