Where are you ?

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: Where are you ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri May 30, 2014 11:53 pm

ashley72 wrote:
Peter Russell is just as ill equipped to talk about the "hard problem" as much as the other philosophers with an Eastern slant.


And that's your own bias speaking once again. Not to mention, He's a physicist Ashley, not a philosopher. He studied under the direct supervision of Stephen Hawking at Cambridge University. You don't have to agree with his views, and while yes, he does have philosophical views (Eastern) on certain things, I don't think YOU are one to judge whether he is qualified or not to discuss such matters.
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat May 31, 2014 12:04 am

ashley72 wrote:What I'm pointing to here isn't mere speculation. Machine learning agents have already been built and physically tested... and demonstrated to work. Whilst artificial brains that are loosely based an the mammalian brains are already in the early stages of construction & physical testing.


No one is debating you Ashley as to whether AI is coming up with machine learning and robots that resemble human brains. However, there is still not a SHRED of empirical evidence that Consciousness is generated from the brain. Not a SHRED. YOU are stating this as a belief. Simple.
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby beginnersmind » Sat May 31, 2014 12:20 am

Image
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby beginnersmind » Sat May 31, 2014 12:22 am

Enlightened2B wrote:Phil, Deepok Chopra is not the one that coined the term. I don't think he's a legitimate source either for anything spiritual or scientific. He got schooled by Stuart Hameroff in a scientific debate and pretty much sounds like he just regurgitates spiritual ideas and profits off of it. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get of him.

.


I agree. I kind of put Chopra in the same realm as Dyer.
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat May 31, 2014 12:54 am

beginnersmind wrote:Image


I prefer the original Terminator. Wasn't a big fan of any of the sequels.
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby beginnersmind » Sat May 31, 2014 12:55 am

Me neither E2B, but this one had Rise of the Machines in the title. Seemed fitting for this :mrgreen:
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby ashley72 » Sat May 31, 2014 12:56 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
ashley72 wrote:
Peter Russell is just as ill equipped to talk about the "hard problem" as much as the other philosophers with an Eastern slant.


And that's your own bias speaking once again. Not to mention, He's a physicist Ashley, not a philosopher. He studied under the direct supervision of Stephen Hawking at Cambridge University. You don't have to agree with his views, and while yes, he does have philosophical views (Eastern) on certain things, I don't think YOU are one to judge whether he is qualified or not to discuss such matters.


I'm not judging the man, I'm judging his theory... and I'm certainly qualified to judge a theory just as adequately as the next guy.
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat May 31, 2014 1:04 am

No Ashley. Saying "he is not qualified to comment" (which is what you said in your previous post) is you judging the man, not the theory. Big difference.
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby ashley72 » Sat May 31, 2014 1:57 am

Enlightened2B wrote:No Ashley. Saying "he is not qualified to comment" (which is what you said in your previous post) is you judging the man, not the theory. Big difference.


I'm saying he's ill equipped, i.e poorly supplied with physical equipment to explain his theory. I'm not attacking the man, I'm attacking his lack of physical equipment to physically test his claims.
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby ashley72 » Sat May 31, 2014 2:02 am

Guys like Seth Lloyd, makes claims that Universe is like a big quantum computer... But these guys at least back up their big assertions with actual physical equipment.

http://youtu.be/Qh8QfKVcvFA
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby Phil2 » Sat May 31, 2014 9:32 am

ashley72 wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
So consciousness needs no explanation, cannot be explained ... but rather consciousness is what explains all things ...


What you doing here is turning Consciousness into a term with the same broad meaning as Reality.

Being conscious means being aware of the environment. Now a thermostatically controlled furnace is aware (senses) the room temperature and can switch off/on based on its set temperature. So I guess you could argue that even a furnace is ever so slightly conscious. :lol: Is that what your doing here?


No, the furnace itself appears in the space of awareness ... this is not an assumption ... this is a fact ... nothing in fact can happen outside awareness, this would be absurd ...

This reminds me the famous dispute between Niels Bohr and Einstein (about the famous 'Copenhagen interpretation') when the 'uncertainty principle' was established by Heisenberg, who worked with Bohr in Copenhagen. Einstein argumented "I, at any rate, am convinced that He (God) does not throw dice." and "Do you really think the moon isn't there if you aren't looking at it?" to which Bohr answered "Einstein, don't tell God what to do.".

What Einstein did not understand then, is that consciousness is much more than 'looking' at something (the physical senses) ... consciousness is the space in which all things appear, and we are this space itself ... which is formless ... unmanifested ...

It is exactly like when dreaming, the dreamer is the space in which all forms of the dream appear ... but the dreamer himself is unmanifested in the dream ... he never appears ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby Phil2 » Sat May 31, 2014 9:49 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
ashley72 wrote:What I'm pointing to here isn't mere speculation. Machine learning agents have already been built and physically tested... and demonstrated to work. Whilst artificial brains that are loosely based an the mammalian brains are already in the early stages of construction & physical testing.


No one is debating you Ashley as to whether AI is coming up with machine learning and robots that resemble human brains. However, there is still not a SHRED of empirical evidence that Consciousness is generated from the brain. Not a SHRED. YOU are stating this as a belief. Simple.



Good point E2B.

Indeed consciousness is an undeniable FACT ... not a belief ... so saying that consciousness arises from matter, while there is no evidence for that, is merely a belief ... and this belief arises from another belief: the identification to forms (body / mind) ie. ego as a separate and limited entity ... because of our identification with the body, we imagine/believe that all bodies 'contain' a separate awareness ... this is merely an assumption created by thought ... there is only ONE awareness ... this is a fact ... you can never experience another awareness than 'yours' (which btw is not 'yours' at all, a way to speak).

Exactly the same for death: the fact is that NOW only life is, this is a FACT, but because of the erroneous identification with unpermanent form (body/mind) we create the belief that death exists ... as Ramana said: death is a myth ... a concept ... an idea ...

So the 'burden of the proof' does not lie by those who say "Life is eternal" but well by those who say that there is such thing as 'death' ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby Phil2 » Sat May 31, 2014 10:53 am

Phil2 wrote:
Here's an interesting interview about this hard problem ...

Closer To Truth asks David Chalmers: Why is Consciousness so Mysterious?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTIk9MN3T6w

"Don't try to reduce consciousness to some more basic things ... consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe, the way that space and time and mass are. Once you have done that you can build a fantastic science of consciousness in the way we have developped a science of space and time ..."



So we could see an emerging "Science of consciousness" in which consciousness would not be the secondary factor like in current scientific approach of an independant observer, but rather the primary factor from which all things emerge and happen.

IOW, consciousness would be the 'matter' of the universe and no more a 'by-product' of matter.

What remains to be studied are the laws, if any, that govern the inter-relationships between consciousness and its manifestation (as the universe, body etc ...). Presently we barely know anything on that ... except maybe in some 'magic' books which clearly establish relationships between thought and matter ...

Anyway, any science needs to be reminded of François Rabelais' saying (in his book 'Pantagruel') that

"Science without conscience is but the ruin of the soul".

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"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby Phil2 » Sat May 31, 2014 11:16 am

Phil2 wrote:
What remains to be studied are the laws, if any, that govern the inter-relationships between consciousness and its manifestation (as the universe, body etc ...). Presently we barely know anything on that ... except maybe in some 'magic' books which clearly establish relationships between thought and matter ...



Also we did receive in fact a very important hint on this in John's Gospel which starts with :


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
(John 1:1)

... and this reminds me also the First Agreement from Don Miguel Ruiz :

"Be impeccable with your word" ...

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Where are you ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:59 am

ashley72 wrote:
Phil2 wrote:Ashley,

Deepak Chopra explains that you cannot find any 'image' in the brain, nothing in the brain contains an image, you only get there biochemical reactions, electrical signals etc ... the image itself is NOT in the brain, but in consciousness ... and consciousness itself is NOT in the brain ... because consciousness is non-local ... in other words : formless ...


If you look inside a computer you won't find an image either. You will find many transistors (binary states). That's the same in the brain, you have many neurons that are holding a "state"... but are synaptic (graded weight representations) rather than binary.

Each optic nerve has between 770,000 to 1.7 million axons (nerve cell) conducting electric pulses.

The light which is an electromagnetic wave carries information about the object it reflects off. The light goes through the pupil and triggers the photoreceptors (nerve cells) which fire electric pulses that build the visual scene in your neural network (visual cortex). It's a lot more complex than this in reality but this is the basic visual process.


Here's an interesting video from Sir Roger Penrose which directly answers to those assumptions that consciousness emerges from matter complexity ...

Sir Roger Penrose — The quantum nature of consciousness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WXTX0IUaOg

Roger Penrose wrote:"There is a current view that consciousness is something which arises from some complicated computation. So we have our computers, and people think that because they can do things amazingly fast, and they can calculate very quickly, and they can play chess extremely well, that they are superior to us even, and it is only some complicated aspect of this computational activity that somehow consciousness arises from that. Now my view is quite different from this. I think there is a lot of computational activity going on in the brain, but this is basically unconscious. So consciousness seems to me to be something quite different."
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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