Your Way is Yours Alone

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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby Phil2 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:48 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:You've got it completely wrong Phil. Totally wrong. It's ALL Identity. The spiritual aspect of you is inseparable from the body and mind.


So why did Eckhart say that the essence of who you are is formless awareness, neither physical nor psychological form ?

??

Maybe you don't agree with Eckhart Tolle any more, which of course is your absolute right ... but then maybe you could find another forum more appropriate to your newly acquired beliefs and self delusions ...

??
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:57 pm

Because you are not ONLY the body/mind. You are more than this. Your essence extends beyond the physical. Through multiple iterations moving ever closer to Origin. But being more than the body/mind does not stop you from ALSO being the body/mind. There is a problem in the "spiritual community" in that people seem to say you can only be Either OR, when you are clearly, Both AND. This whole, movement against being the body/mind is just the creation of another duality. A duality where there is formlessness vs form. In actuality, formlessness IS form and form IS formlessness. Hence, non-duality.

Love, Acceptance, Peace,

Jack
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:06 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:You've got it completely wrong Phil. Totally wrong. It's ALL Identity. The spiritual aspect of you is inseparable from the body and mind. It created them. And, simultaneously, is them. Just as origin created All. And, simultaneously, is All. As below, so above. As above, so below. The rules of Creation flow in both upward and downward 'directions'.

Every Perspective, no matter how individual and small or comic and large, is an Identity. The Oneness of the Present is the full inclusion of ALL Perspectives. It is the Supreme Identity, made of it's creations that are both separate and free-will endowed Identities of their very own, AND simultaneously smaller aspects that together are the Known Identity of Origin. Origin is creating free-will being's in it's own image so it may go on a voyage of Self-discovery. Each of our own voyages of Self-discovery adds to the Knowing Origin has for It-Self. Our Self-discovery, is It's Self-discovery. It is intimately connected to each of us. In a sense, we are It, but also we are our Own. We are both separate and inseparate. Where separation is greatest, the greatest potential for Self-discovery exists. The physical realm of Earth is a place of great separation. We are here to discover our-Selves (move from separation to inseparation) in a place of great limitation to add greatly to the Self-discovery of our Own Identity and the Original Identity and the Identity of All Creation.

Love, Awe, Glory,

Jack


Awesome stuff Jack. You've gone a lot deeper experientially than I have for sure, but this resonates with me greatly.

I don't think you should feel the need to explain yourself to people though as you have done in this thread. Phil has his own path as you have yours. Neither is right nor wrong. Each is wonderful in their own regards as all perspectives are incredibly valuable to the whole, no matter how limited they might appear.

Oneness to me is exactly as you indicate.....the inclusion of all perspectives no matter what the perspectives are and that includes your perspective and Phil's perspective. Right/wrong are merely mind labels we apply to things via our human minds. There are no problems from the greater whole, because everything is already perfect as it is. Unconditionally loving every perspective because of the value it brings, is in my opinion, the nature of Source. We are each a perspective of the whole. Our core essence is the whole.

I value your own perspective and much love to you Jack for what you bring to this forum.
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:02 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:I don't think you should feel the need to explain yourself to people though as you have done in this thread. Phil has his own path as you have yours. Neither is right nor wrong. Each is wonderful in their own regards as all perspectives are incredibly valuable to the whole, no matter how limited they might appear.


I agree. We all have our Own Way. It's amazing! I love it!

However, I think I need to explain something, and I'll use a real-world analogy. In medicine, doctors are said to have a duty of care. If a doctor is off work and in public and sees someone hurt they have a legal obligation to help. The doctor could say "well, it's all one, so if this person dies, it makes no difference to the totality", but they would still have a legal and personal responsibility to use their experience to help another. In a similar way, I could be walking down the road and see a toddler walking into a busy road and see a car coming toward it. I could say, the unconditional love of origin wants this child to die. Or maybe, the unconditional love of origin wants me to run over and grab the child to safety. Either way, it is MY Responsibility. There is a risk when feeling into Origin to absolve personal Responsibility. I see that as a problem. A trap on the road to personal development. I have discerned a problem. A child walking into a busy road. I have a Responsibility. I have a duty of care. I feel into every navigational aid at my disposal and, motivated by the Loving Light that Radiates from my Heart, the Oneness I feel in every Aspect of my Being, and the Alignment of the Energy Centers of and beyond My Body, I carefully explore and enact my feelings, thoughts and behaviours. I am Learning and I don't set this in stone, but at This Time, This is Right.

Love, Honesty, Doubtlessness,

Jack
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:19 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:I value your own perspective and much love to you Jack for what you bring to this forum.


Also, thank you very much for this :) Appreciation and Respect are so important. I realise I may be appearing to some here as not being Respectful or Appreciative of some people here throughout this thread. From My Perspective, I feel great Love and Appreciation for those here who I am debating with. Their accusations and harmful words take me deep into My Self and allow me to pull threads of negativity from me (or in the case of my Throat Chakra, an entire ball of wool!). From My Perspective it's like I'm walking to my Friend's house ("Bob") and see that he has accidentally set fire to his house. I run over to say "your house is on fire!" and Bob says "there is no house" ... "but you're standing in it...can't you feel the heat?!", Bob says "you're deluded - they should lock you away". Then the fire spreads to a nearby house owned by "Mary". I say, "Mary, your house is on fire!", "is it?!" she says? She continues "How do I put it out?" I say, "all you ha..." Bob interrupts "Don't listen to him Mary, he's insane, there is no fire, or house, or Mary". "Oh" says Mary, relieved.

Then this music kicks in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coPB3GLpx98
(Should I stay or should I go - The Clash)
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:46 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:
However, I think I need to explain something, and I'll use a real-world analogy. In medicine, doctors are said to have a duty of care. If a doctor is off work and in public and sees someone hurt they have a legal obligation to help. The doctor could say "well, it's all one, so if this person dies, it makes no difference to the totality", but they would still have a legal and personal responsibility to use their experience to help another. In a similar way, I could be walking down the road and see a toddler walking into a busy road and see a car coming toward it. I could say, the unconditional love of origin wants this child to die. Or maybe, the unconditional love of origin wants me to run over and grab the child to safety. Either way, it is MY Responsibility. There is a risk when feeling into Origin to absolve personal Responsibility. I see that as a problem. A trap on the road to personal development. I have discerned a problem. A child walking into a busy road. I have a Responsibility. I have a duty of care. I feel into every navigational aid at my disposal and, motivated by the Loving Light that Radiates from my Heart, the Oneness I feel in every Aspect of my Being, and the Alignment of the Energy Centers of and beyond My Body, I carefully explore and enact my feelings, thoughts and behaviours. I am Learning and I don't set this in stone, but at This Time, This is Right.


Totally agree here Jack. However, didn't really mean that personal responsibility is absolved. That's not what I was saying at all. I just meant when debating with other people, whether on an internet forum such as this one or not, each perspective is valid when you can see where the other person is coming from...even from a conditioned self. There are some perspectives that are more limited and narrowed than others...no doubt, but I wouldn't necessarily claim them as right nor wrong. It's more a matter of seeing how some perspectives stem from conditioning unconsciously and others stem from the light of 'love' as cheesy as that sounds.

On the other hand, If you saw a child in the middle of the street about to be hit by a car, you would (of course) act and do everything in your power to save that child because it's an instinctive reaction to do as such and you know that being hit by a car is not a good thing based on your own experience. However, whether you chose to do so, or not, is not a matter of being 'right or wrong' as I see it, but more a matter of the level of your 'presence' in that moment. Every choice we make merely manifests a different experience. The world we experience is a collective dream being experienced by everyone and everything in existence. It's one massive cosmic experience as I see it. So, it's what we make of it collectively. What we perceive as 'good/bad' is only an interpretation based on our level of conditioning. So, if someone chooses NOT to act in that situation to save the child. Is it really wrong? How do we know the circumstances behind that' persons's actions or non actions? Even if that person's mindset is that 'the world is not real, therefore I don't care what happens to this child'. Clearly, this is an 'unconscious and limited perspective', (which is why neo-advaita is so dangerous I feel), but before jumping on this person, you can see how conditioning has played the role to put this person in the spot where they are today and perhaps even mental illness to an extent.

This doesn't absolve anyone of personal responsibility of course, but allows us to see how situations unfold through the web of connectedness of our experience. Unconsciousness is unconsciousness and I find it to be an act of compassion and love to see this.
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:50 pm

I like your posts E2B - clear and informed.

When I was speaking of absolving people of personal responsibility I was being general rather than referring to your comment specifically. I should have been more clear.

Enlightened2B wrote:This doesn't absolve anyone of personal responsibility of course, but allows us to see how situations unfold through the web of connectedness of our experience. Unconsciousness is unconsciousness and I find it to be an act of compassion and love to see this.


I agree. I see how everyone is where they are for a reason and it is Perfect from one Perspective. I like what you say here about seeing unconsciousness. Being conscious of unconsciousness raises it in frequency. It moves it from unknowing to Knowing. My point in this thread has been to point out unconsciousness. To raise awareness of it. As a collective, humanity is doing this now. My purpose is to raise consciousness here. So I highlight it so it can be made conscious. To not do so would be to say "unconsciousness is OK" which helps to perpetuate unconsciousness, in MySelf, the Other and the Collective. To say "unconsciousness is not OK, here is what consciousness looks like" is to help perpetuate consciousness, in MySelf, the Other and the Collective.

I feel it is working.

Love, Sincerity, Humility,

Jack
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:19 am

I want to say E2B you are nailing the balancing act in awareness, capacity & willingness in self and others' perspectives and personal responsibilities. :D

Zen said: My purpose is to raise consciousness here. So I highlight it so it can be made conscious. To not do so would be to say "unconsciousness is OK" which helps to perpetuate unconsciousness, in MySelf, the Other and the Collective. To say "unconsciousness is not OK, here is what consciousness looks like" is to help perpetuate consciousness, in MySelf, the Other and the Collective.

This is an understandable perspective given the immense learning curve you've been experiencing in awareness Zen. However, it's premise is that consciousness needs you to mind everyone else's business. It means then that you are using your own consciousness as a means to an end, and simultaneously when it meets opposition that you are treating others' awareness, capacity and willingness as an enemy or obstacle to consciousness itself.

Unconsciousness is as embraced by the all as anything else. It is all in perfect, perpetual equilibrium.

Unconsciousness therefore is okay (accommodated) in its own natural time and place. None of us are CEO of the universe, or hero or villain.

How others are experiencing and energising their perspectives is not our personal responsibility to address. It is enough for us to each be our beautiful self and share of that.

To say unconsciousness is not okay, or different experiences of consciousness is 'insane' or not okay, is to delineate and judge levels of awareness, capacity and willingness outside of our own experience. It is what it is.

What consciousness looks like and feels like to one - may not look like or feel like consciousness at all to another.

Each perspective is unique, precious and totally determined - created - by individual and immediate in each moment - awareness - of perspectives, of internal and external stimuli, of thought patterns, of experiences, of knowledge of internal and external 'possible' natural or imposed consequences;

capacity - grown by experiencing and testing and flexing and embracing 'resistances' - the butterfly that has struggled from its cocoon - creating and energising the flow of perfect hormonal and physical and mental harmony in response flowing into action/creation;

and

willingness - to see and participate with a wider world than the cocoon one is enveloped by, willingness to unveil the tight swaddling cloths of our beliefs that comfort and confine us.

But, within awareness, capacity & willingness, one cannot dictate or prescribe accurately for any other. One butterfly who has struggled out of their cocoon may indeed be impatient for others still in their cocoons to struggle free and join them flying free in the wind and the rain and the sunshine - but they know they cannot chew through the others' cocoon to free them because it would render the rescued limp and weak, too weak to fly. We need the individual struggle to strengthen our wings, and we need to free our selves - grow our wings and experience the wider world, rather than stay in our comfortable, warm and snugly shroud/cocoon.

Yes grab the little child who from their own lack of awareness strayed into physical danger, and whose capacity is unable to avert their own demise, but do not then lecture them for being a child with limited awareness and capacity, and do not stay on the kerb waiting for every other child who comes along and judge them incapable - without evidence - of crossing the road safely. Do not hold yourself as CEO of the universe and raising the consciousness of others. Whatever happens will happen as a natural consequence of your being, in equilibrium with the being of others.

Your purpose is to perpetuate consciousness by being conscious, in as many moments as your awareness, capacity and willingness allows. When we take the personal out of it then it becomes .... purpose is consciousness being conscious in whatever levels of awareness, capacity and willingness are interpreted, translated and enacted.

This is equilibrium in motion. There is no right or wrong, there just is.

So raising consciousness in this thread - is to be aware of the 'okayness' of all perspectives within it. To meet each of them with gratitude and generosity and if genuinely interested in understanding the perspectives of others, to enquire into the awareness, capacity and willingness that others are conscious of within them self.

In discussions, certainly if one is judging another, they will assume that they are being judged. That's just the swaddling cloth they've wrapped them self in at this time. There are other butterflies who will play and fly in the sun and the rain and the wind with you, no need to seek to tear others' cocoons impatient for them to join you. It's enough to be, and to be aware and maybe even a little excited and patient and loving as one watches another butterfly struggling willingly inside their cocoon, give a little encouragement if they ask, reassure them the wind and rain and sun out here is fine, no thing to fear, and then embrace those who do join you in flight.

To the caterpillar a butterfly in a cocoon looks dead and a butterfly flying free with its wings looks nothing at all like them self or like anything they could ever be or experience being. But a butterfly remembers --- I was once crawling on that ground, I was once wrapped struggling in that cocoon - and so they don't worry about the caterpillar or the cocoon, they know .........


...and just to test the peace of it.... :wink: because it is 'perfect'....

"The world is changed by your example,
not by your opinion."

with unashamedly gushing gratitude & generosity to Paul Coelho for saying so.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby Phil2 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:39 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Unconsciousness therefore is okay (accommodated) in its own natural time and place. None of us are CEO of the universe, or hero or villain.


Excellent post Jen .. for once I understood what you said (joking) :lol:

I like your expression "CEO of the universe" here ...

smiileyjen101 wrote:
How others are experiencing and energising their perspectives is not our personal responsibility to address. It is enough for us to each be our beautiful self and share of that.
...
Each perspective is unique, precious and totally determined - created - by individual and immediate in each moment - awareness - of perspectives, of internal and external stimuli, of thought patterns, of experiences, of knowledge of internal and external 'possible' natural or imposed consequences;


Yes, each person is the Artist of his own life, and he takes responsibility for it ... we can perceive here the influence of Don Miguel Ruiz ... and btw don't take this personally ...

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:15 am

Thank you Jen. I had a feeling you'd come in with some delicious words of wisdom at some point :) .

I'm using this thread as an exploration in my own development more than anything else. Observing this new found confidence and testing it's limits. Seeing what is and what is not appropriate. Unifying it with my other aspects. Spiraling toward a greater equilibrium. Your way is an inspiration to me - thank you for being you.

Someone else I admire had told me something similar. But I wanted to do this for myself. To stand alone and learn my own way. To disregard the advice of someone I love and trust so that I can stand on my own two feet as an exploration of my independence. I had a feeling I'd end up moving to where they advised (where you advise) but I felt it was important to do it myself and this was enforced by energetic constrictions, openings and other guidance.

I was thinking last night how my self-confidence and certainty contains within it the certainty that the potential exists for everything I am certain of to collapse and something else to exist in it's place. I'm happy that is happening here. There is a greater ease and enjoyment with it.

I'm not 100% that this particular exploration is complete but I will continue with sincerity, humility and openness. I know my guides intentionally lie to me sometimes (lie might be a bit strong, I mean move me in a direction telling me it is one thing when it is actually another) so that may be what happened here.

Thank you for your delightful words Jen.

Awareness, Capacity, Willingness ;)

Jack
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby Phil2 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:32 am

EnterZenFromThere wrote:Awareness, Capacity, Willingness ;)

Jack


Where did love go Jack ? abandoned in the fight ?

:)
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:58 am

I was giving a nod to Jen's wonderful trinity of awareness, capacity and willingness. You are a very strange guy Phil - your motivations bewilder me.

Love, Love, Love ;)

Jack
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby alex » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:16 pm

Jen, sure... it's all beautiful and yummy and we're all just where we're meant to be.. but it doesn't mean we can't make movements to change the world for the better, to light the fire of truth in other's hearts. What's the point of every spiritual teacher out there? Why do they bother to teach? If one is operating from a higher consciousness (not saying I'm certain that Jack is) and sees unconsciousness in those seeking truth then ofcourse the natural progression is to guide them to where they are stuck and what they can't see. Your post sounded like a pretty way of saying 'it's all a yummy big goop of okayness, really, so let's not bother doing anything about all the suffering.'
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby alex » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:23 pm

Jack, I think Phil purposefully tries to push our buttons... which I kind of love him for. Life is so amazing! Teachers everywhere.
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Re: Your Way is Yours Alone

Postby Phil2 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:25 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:
Love, Love, Love ;)



Phew, I feared you lost it ...

:D
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