'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby dijmart » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:02 pm

Onceler wrote: So your post speaks to me in this sense as I try to divest these habits.....actually there isn't much trying, I just see the behavior for what it is and it comes to an end over time, or greatly reduces, allowing the intensity in, bit by bit.


Very cool! As far as what you wrote in this quote, that can be taken different ways for people. Another words, the "habits" may or may not be things of comfort like food, smoking ect, but may also be habits of repetitive thought patterns, emotional reactions, power struggles, ect. that one starts to see as sort of illusory "patterns of conditioning", that one then starts to Integrate with the insights. The behaviors start to soften, thoughts lose their tight grip, becoming more expansive and dare I say loving.

It's easiest for me to "see" things the way they "really" are if I'm in balance. When knocked off kilter for what ever reason, judgement also can go bye-bye, falling back into repetitive patterns is easy and integrating is unfortunately then stalled. So, to put it another way, if you're in the processes of say reducing negative emotions and integrating them, but you are taunted and having your buttons pushed left and right, then it's going to be difficult to integrate and release, while this is going on, so that's when action to have that stop, by whatever means possible (even if you must ignore someone) is the best course of action, imo. Just as it would be difficult to stop eating twinkies, if you have someone shoveling them in your mouth when ever you go to reach for an apple :lol:
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby Phil2 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:37 pm

dijmart wrote:So, to put it another way, if you're in the processes of say reducing negative emotions and integrating them, but you are taunted and having your buttons pushed left and right, then it's going to be difficult to integrate and release, while this is going on, so that's when action to have that stop, by whatever means possible (even if you must ignore someone) is the best course of action, imo.


Right, in this case better keep quiet for a while ... and stop 'doing' whatever thoughts (and emotions) tell you ...

"Now the negation of disorder is silence. Any movement of thought will only breed further disorder. "

J. Krishnamurti
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby Onceler » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:58 am

dijmart wrote:
Onceler wrote: So your post speaks to me in this sense as I try to divest these habits.....actually there isn't much trying, I just see the behavior for what it is and it comes to an end over time, or greatly reduces, allowing the intensity in, bit by bit.


Very cool! As far as what you wrote in this quote, that can be taken different ways for people. Another words, the "habits" may or may not be things of comfort like food, smoking ect, but may also be habits of repetitive thought patterns, emotional reactions, power struggles, ect. that one starts to see as sort of illusory "patterns of conditioning", that one then starts to Integrate with the insights. The behaviors start to soften, thoughts lose their tight grip, becoming more expansive and dare I say loving.

It's easiest for me to "see" things the way they "really" are if I'm in balance. When knocked off kilter for what ever reason, judgement also can go bye-bye, falling back into repetitive patterns is easy and integrating is unfortunately then stalled. So, to put it another way, if you're in the processes of say reducing negative emotions and integrating them, but you are taunted and having your buttons pushed left and right, then it's going to be difficult to integrate and release, while this is going on, so that's when action to have that stop, by whatever means possible (even if you must ignore someone) is the best course of action, imo. Just as it would be difficult to stop eating twinkies, if you have someone shoveling them in your mouth when ever you go to reach for an apple :lol:


Yes! I see what you're saying about repetitive thought patterns and emotional reactions. Didn't think of that....sometimes I go into these patterns and just stop, now that I think of it. My old ways of reacting have lost some (not all) momentum. More to think about....

I'm having one of those rare forum experiences where what I write about and respond to becomes enacted in my life to some degree.....and as I see these patterns, they lose some potency. Thanks.
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby dijmart » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:55 am

Onceler wrote:
Yes! I see what you're saying about repetitive thought patterns and emotional reactions. Didn't think of that....sometimes I go into these patterns and just stop, now that I think of it. My old ways of reacting have lost some (not all) momentum. More to think about....


Yes, I've also stopped when being in a conditioned pattern and thought, "wow,there it is! right there!", unless it's got too much momentum, then it's like trying to stop a mac truck, until it fizzles out. We will always have personalities that have certain characteristics, but it's the "conditioning" that has the ability to entrap and stifle one's potential in this life. As it sets us on auto pilot. Seeing through the conditioning is half the insight though, the other part is actually responding differently to life then we may have done prior to this knowledge, it's where the rubber meets the road. It's easy to repeat what a master or guru said as your own truth, as some do here (and there's nothing wrong with that), but is one able to walk the talk in their own life or not. That's the measuring stick, so to speak, not just knowing the information.

I'm having one of those rare forum experiences where what I write about and respond to becomes enacted in my life to some degree.....and as I see these patterns, they lose some potency. Thanks.


Super cool! Yes, the more you see the patterns (the more I see them), the lighter you can feel (the lighter I feel) and the easier it is too chose differently (the easier it is for me to chose differently), but sometimes we chose the same and that's ok, because we're a work in progress. :D
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby dijmart » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:31 am

Yes, the more you see the patterns (the more I see them), the lighter you can feel (the lighter I feel) and the easier it is too chose differently (the easier it is for me to chose differently), but sometimes we chose the same and that's ok, because we're a work in progress. :D


Oh, btw, I didn't mean you do it, THEN I do it. But, how when you do it AND I also do it, it's the same essentially, seen through a different perspective, because we are all one ultimately. So, the "same" awareness is "seeing" these conditioned patterns, noticing them, aware of them, then, integration starts to happen, but in different body/minds.
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby Onceler » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:23 pm

Yup, got it! Agreed.
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:36 am

I guess my first thought/question is why is this topic in the 'pain & suffering' section Phil?

Do you see doing as creating pain & suffering?

In ANE in the section 'A New Earth', which I obviously love/resonate with, ET explains that consciousness is already conscious, and the 'universe' is only gradually becoming conscious. He describes consciousness as the 'intelligence, the organizing principle behind the arising of form.' I'd agree with that notion. Therefore there is no separation for me in the arising, or the noticing or the utilising of form - even thoughts as formed waves of energy arising and flowing into actions.

ET then goes on to discuss the Modalities of Awakened Doing - the notions of acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm filling the present moment regardless of what that present moment holds.

So at this level I see no 'versus', no separation, no conflict and no pain and suffering in 'doing' it is as if the being is the doing, and the doing is the being - so one might be being the washing the dishes awarely, acceptingly, joyfully, enthusiastically - rather than making enemy, obstacle, or means to an end of the doing.

But, just the same as making 'enemy, obstacle, means to an end' of the ego creates unnecessary suffering, so too would it be the result if one makes enemy, obstacle, means to an end of 'doing'.

We are all 'being' and 'doing' within our own awareness, capacity & willingness - so in effect one is always 'doing their best', and depending on awareness, capacity & willingness - possibly - learning to BE 'better' (create less pain & suffering) in what we are 'doing'.

- In some ways it reminds me of ET's awareness & embracing of different levels of awareness, capacity & willingness creating different experiences of applying 'free will' - and I am still and always will be grateful to you Phil for patiently discussing 'free will' notions & differences in perspective with me (even if it looked to others as if we were in personal 'conflict' over it in heated topics :wink: ).

If one is operating in the modalities of awakened doing, it just stands to reason that the increased awareness, capacity & willingness will embrace and 'notice' the 'intelligence, the organizing principle behind the arising of form.' This includes the awareness of the patterns and synchronicities in our interactions with all other 'consciousness'.

For me, watching the interactions even in this thread, interweave with all that has arisen before it synchronistically, including when I might have taken offence where no offence was intended and could not see my own reactions for what they were - and thanks to Phil - I now do.

ET A New Earth in A New Earth:
What is the relationship between awareness and thinking?

Awareness is the space in which thoughts exist when that space has become conscious of itself.

Once you have had a glimpse of awareness or presence, you know it firsthand. It is no longer a concept in your mind. You can then make a conscious choice to be present rather than to indulge in useless thinking. You can invite presence into your life, that is to say, make space.

With the grace of awakening comes responsibility.

You can either go on as if nothing has happened, or you can see its significance and recognize the arising of awareness as the most important thing that can happen to you. Opening yourself to the emerging consciousness and bringing its light into this world then becomes the primary purpose of your life.
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby Phil2 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:20 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:I guess my first thought/question is why is this topic in the 'pain & suffering' section Phil?

Do you see doing as creating pain & suffering?


Yes Jen, the 'doing' mode clearly generates suffering, because it is driven by thought, ie. 'intentions' ... and intention means 'in-tension' ie. stress ... there is an expectation of some future result ... iow. time is created ... and presence is lost ...


smiileyjen101 wrote:ET then goes on to discuss the Modalities of Awakened Doing - the notions of acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm filling the present moment regardless of what that present moment holds.

So at this level I see no 'versus', no separation, no conflict and no pain and suffering in 'doing' it is as if the being is the doing, and the doing is the being - so one might be being the washing the dishes awarely, acceptingly, joyfully, enthusiastically - rather than making enemy, obstacle, or means to an end of the doing.

But, just the same as making 'enemy, obstacle, means to an end' of the ego creates unnecessary suffering, so too would it be the result if one makes enemy, obstacle, means to an end of 'doing'.


What you (or ET ?) call "awakened doing" Jen, is sometimes referred to as 'non-action' or 'non intentional action', in this case there is no projection of a future result, action remains fully anchored in presence, in being ... in fact in this action there is no 'doer' ... things just happen as they come and we (thought) make no obstacle to the 'flow of life' ... no tension created ... no stress ... no conflict/resistance with 'what is' ...
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:00 am

Phil said:
Yes Jen, the 'doing' mode clearly generates suffering, because it is driven by thought, ie. 'intentions' ... and intention means 'in-tension' ie. stress ... there is an expectation of some future result ... iow. time is created ... and presence is lost ...


hmm...

Phil said: What you (or ET ?) call "awakened doing" Jen, is sometimes referred to as 'non-action' or 'non intentional action', in this case there is no projection of a future result, action remains fully anchored in presence, in being ... in fact in this action there is no 'doer' ... things just happen as they come and we (thought) make no obstacle to the 'flow of life' ... no tension created ... no stress ... no conflict/resistance with 'what is' ...


That's not quite how I 'read' (interpreted / translated) that section of ANE, nor how it applies or can be experienced, or observed in my humble experiencing. I am aware not only of being the doing, but also of the energy of the intention - all movement of all energy is created only by tension & release, whether one is conscious of it or not.

One can be in flow with those movements, participating awarely in the dance of energies knowing that things will move and change by the participation. (and now this flows a little into those dicey topics... personal responsibility & free will).

One may have intention without holding too tightly to it, and stress is only going to create suffering if it is beyond the capacity of those creating the movement - where an ego might be 'writing cheques the body can't cash' scenarios.

I don't see intention specifically creating suffering any more than I see doing specifically creating suffering. If suffering arises one can look to see where the 'glob' is stopping or flowing into the creation of suffering, but without intention & 'doing' one cannot participate in the dance of energies 'willingly', or 'awarely'. One is more a leaf on a river, or being blown in the wind, and that is not living to our fullest capacity - even those who are physically paralysed are more than this.

The 'non-action' thing above sounds like an abdication of both our ability to respond and our ability to create. To me, that abdication has to either come from awareness or lack of, or willingness or lack of.

The whole shebang works within growing or static levels of awareness, capacity & willingness. Where there is movement in one there has to be relationship with the other two.

In ET speak - awakened doing is where consciousness 'can now begin to create form without losing itself in it." and our participation in it is not necessarily in suffering. In an awake state it is in awareness of our awareness, and to the best of our capacity without creating suffering through wishing or denying our capacity other than it naturally is. And, in willingness that is also aware of itself.

ET... 'Awakened doing is the alignment of your outer purpose - what you do - with your inner purpose - awakening and staying awake.

Through awakened doing you (aware that there IS a 'you' in the mix) become one with the outgoing purpose of the universe. Consciousness flows through you into this world.
It flows into your thoughts and inspires them.
It flows into what you do and guides and empowers it.



He goes on to say it's not about 'what you do', but how you do what you do.

It's funny all the 'no you' 'no doing' stuff sounds to me like folks think they disappear while in material form and we don't, we just see a little more clearly, the interactions & tensions & releases of energy in motion creating simultaneous experiences by individual and collective consciousness. Individually not always awarely, collectively always & eternally awake and aware.

From my experience the freedom from unnecessary suffering releases energy into 'doing' whatever more awarely, using our capacity honestly, aware of our willingness (yep - consciousness does not presume to choose for us) to participate in any particular dance, as a doer, or a be-er, or a victim or a hero or an ego or a light, as acceptance / pouring joy into, enthusiastically or in making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of a thing, person or situation, or any combination of experiences that we can imagine and create.

Simultaneously to consciousness participating in (and therefore 'allowing') our experiences, we are also participating in the experiences of all consciousness. ET says this about that -

ET: A reversal of your priorities comes about when the main purpose for doing what you do becomes the doing itself, or rather the current of consciousness that flows into what you do. That current of consciousness is what determines the quality.


It's both humbling and maybe a little scary to realise this, but it's okay because we can only 'do' and 'be' within our own level of awareness, capacity and willingness, so we rarely have experiential understanding or comprehension of one aspect of it without the other two.

ET says: Another way of putting it: In any situation and in any thing you do, your state of consciousness is the primary factor; the situation and what you do is secondary.
(no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience)

Consciousness is already conscious, it doesn't need more consciousness in and of itself, but in order for tension and release to create movement WE (and all living things) participate and create with it, either awarely or blindly, through our thoughts and our actions. Yes blind thoughts and actions may create suffering, aware thoughts and actions do not. They may confuse folks who are at a different level of awareness, capacity or willingness, but no true harm comes in any experience unless we perceive it so.

ET continues: "Future" success is dependent upon and inseparable from the consciousness out of which the actions emanate. That can be either reactive force of the ego or the alert attention of awakened consciousness.

We each will view both our and others' experiences from our own level of awareness, and judge the capacity by ours (better or worse), and the willingness by ours (fear or allowing).

ET concludes: All truly successful action comes out of that field of alert attention, rather than from ego and conditioned, unconscious thinking.


"Successful action' for me, would be that which creates without causing equal opposite 'reaction' in fear --- which is the only way 'suffering' can be perceived as an experience.

ET goes on to describe the Three Modalities of Awakened Doing - acceptance, enjoyment & enthusiasm with which we can align our lives with the creative powers of the universe (which, just like us, is still in the throes of growing awareness, capacity & willingness).

It is my favourite part of the book ANE, and of life itself. The vibrationary frequencies are just YUM, each with their own gorgeous notes.

ET: If you are not in the state of either acceptance, enjoyment or enthusiasm, look closely and you will find that you are creating suffering for your self and others.


Look around you Phil, look inside you - whether we create suffering or not is within our capacity to decide. No other thing decides for us. When we KNOW that, then we are truly free to choose.
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:11 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:It's funny all the 'no you' 'no doing' stuff sounds to me like folks think they disappear while in material form and we don't, we just see a little more clearly, the interactions & tensions & releases of energy in motion creating simultaneous experiences by individual and collective consciousness. Individually not always awarely, collectively always & eternally awake and aware.


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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:22 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Look around you Phil, look inside you - whether we create suffering or not is within our capacity to decide. No other thing decides for us. When we KNOW that, then we are truly free to choose.


Well Jen, after such a long 'demonstration' and many words, it appears that you still have difficulties to totally surrender and release control ... you still need to decide, to choose ... this is not 'choiceless awareness' then ? There is still a 'doer' operating there ...

??
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:44 pm

Yes Phil, there is still relatively, an individual doer, a chooser within what is, in awareness, capacity and willingness.

I am not the 'all', not separate to me or from me.

But in my awareness, I am not enacting the totality from this one limited perspective in relative separation.

This allows the grace of accepting all relative perspectives, and holding to the notion that 'I would not (can not without creating suffering for self or others) presume to choose for you'.

One might say I am aware that in physicality when I am 'doing' I am being an instrument of being. As ET says -
ET... 'Awakened doing is the alignment of your outer purpose - what you do - with your inner purpose - awakening and staying awake.

Through awakened doing you (aware that there IS a 'you' in the mix) become one with the outgoing purpose of the universe. Consciousness flows through you into this world.
It flows into your thoughts and inspires them.
It flows into what you do and guides and empowers it.


When I am not doing I am just being.

When I am doing I don't necessarily lose awareness of being.

And when I do (lose awareness), that's okay too, it's still me being me.
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby Phil2 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:49 am

Just read this beautiful statement in Michael Brown's book "The Presence Process":

"We do not need to do anything to be present."

:D
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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:19 pm

Phil2 wrote:Just read this beautiful statement in Michael Brown's book "The Presence Process":

"We do not need to do anything to be present."

:D

Though we do not 'need' to do anything to be present, that does not preclude being present in the doing. And I didn't need to quote anyone for that to be self evident.

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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:21 pm

Phil2 wrote:Just read this beautiful statement in Michael Brown's book "The Presence Process":

"We do not need to do anything to be present."

:D


No, we don't of course. Being already is.

But, that quote is basically a pointless quote in the context of this particular discussion (the last few posts) because it has nothing at all to do with the post above yours.

The words that you just typed above, didn't just type themselves. That's not to say there is a Separate Doer that is separate from Being that is doing the typing, but instead, doing is a relative action within Being. There is nothing outside of Being. Being/Presence is anything and everything at the same time. But, relatively, it's you that is creating by doing. You don't have access to the entire unlimited perspective Phil and neither do I as long as we are experiencing in this human bodies. We are limited within the frame work of the unlimited. That's what human experience is about. It's breaking out of the idea that we are only limited and realizing that we are more than just limited beings. That's really the simplicity of waking up. But, it's also not denying the relative perspective that is here and now. In a relative world of relationships, where there is only relationship to anything or anyone at any given time, (relative meaning....relative to something else), there is always creation happening. It takes a doer to perform any kind of relative task whether you'd like to admit or deny it. Even the reading of my post by your eyes, can only take place by a relative act of doing. Who made the choice for you to read the post?
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