Illusions

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Re: Illusions

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:20 pm

KathleenBrugger wrote:
Oooh I love that. I will be meditating on where the tree stops and the earth starts for some time! That makes me think of something I read earlier this year about plants. It was mostly about plants having intelligence and even consciousness, and included the idea that we need to stop thinking of trees as separate individuals, because the truth is trees in a forest are linked in an underground network: "trees in a forest organize themselves into far-flung networks, using the underground web of mycorrhizal fungi which connects their roots to exchange information and even goods. This 'wood-wide web,' as the title of one paper put it, allows scores of trees in a forest to convey warnings of insect attacks, and also to deliver carbon, nitrogen, and water to trees in need." The article is by Michael Pollan and is well worth the read (it's long).


Cool article.

I love this part:

It is only human arrogance, and the fact that the lives of plants unfold in what amounts to a much slower dimension of time, that keep us from appreciating their intelligence and consequent success.


Granted, I wouldn't call it human arrogance as much as human ignorance or the human limitations.

I checked out the book that RachMiel posted and I think you'd like it. I'm adding it to my list of books to read. Perhaps a bit too scientific for me, but I'm going to give it a shot.

Edit: Actually, after reading some more reviews on the book, it doesn't seem like a book I'd be interested in....sounds a bit too materialistic. Can't hurt to give it a shot though.
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Re: Illusions

Postby KathleenBrugger » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:52 pm

rachMiel wrote:
KathleenBrugger wrote:That makes me think of something I read earlier this year about plants. It was mostly about plants having intelligence and even consciousness, and included the idea that we need to stop thinking of trees as separate individuals, because the truth is trees in a forest are linked in an underground network: "trees in a forest organize themselves into far-flung networks, using the underground web of mycorrhizal fungi which connects their roots to exchange information and even goods. This 'wood-wide web,' as the title of one paper put it, allows scores of trees in a forest to convey warnings of insect attacks, and also to deliver carbon, nitrogen, and water to trees in need."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_%28tree%29
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... is-fungus/

Kathleen, I bet you'd love this book:

The Sacred Depths of Nature, by Ursula Goodenough (what a last name!)

Thanks for the links. Pando--WOW! I'd never heard of that. And I've already got Ms. Goodenough's book on hold at the library. (What must her life be like, do you think it's led her to the understanding of acceptance? I once met someone whose last name was Makepeace.)

You asked about the illusion of standing on a solid surface. That could be enlarged to everything--the table my laptop is resting on seems awfully solid to me!
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Re: Illusions

Postby KathleenBrugger » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:55 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:
KathleenBrugger wrote:
Oooh I love that. I will be meditating on where the tree stops and the earth starts for some time! That makes me think of something I read earlier this year about plants. It was mostly about plants having intelligence and even consciousness, and included the idea that we need to stop thinking of trees as separate individuals, because the truth is trees in a forest are linked in an underground network: "trees in a forest organize themselves into far-flung networks, using the underground web of mycorrhizal fungi which connects their roots to exchange information and even goods. This 'wood-wide web,' as the title of one paper put it, allows scores of trees in a forest to convey warnings of insect attacks, and also to deliver carbon, nitrogen, and water to trees in need." The article is by Michael Pollan and is well worth the read (it's long).

Cool article.

I love this part:

It is only human arrogance, and the fact that the lives of plants unfold in what amounts to a much slower dimension of time, that keep us from appreciating their intelligence and consequent success.


Granted, I wouldn't call it human arrogance as much as human ignorance or the human limitations.

I checked out the book that RachMiel posted and I think you'd like it. I'm adding it to my list of books to read. Perhaps a bit too scientific for me, but I'm going to give it a shot.

Edit: Actually, after reading some more reviews on the book, it doesn't seem like a book I'd be interested in....sounds a bit too materialistic. Can't hurt to give it a shot though.

I think that's accurate, to call it ignorance rather than arrogance. And much more compassionate. I'll be checking out the book so if you don't, I'll let you know what I find. :D
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Re: Illusions

Postby rachMiel » Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:28 am

KathleenBrugger wrote:You asked about the illusion of standing on a solid surface. That could be enlarged to everything--the table my laptop is resting on seems awfully solid to me!

Depends on the frame of reference, right?

From the FOR of your hand resting on it, the tabletop is solid. From the FOR of your eyes, the tabletop is a color, texture, shape. From the FOR of a quark buzzing around in there somewhere, there is no tabletop.

Is there a "privileged" frame of reference? Or is reality in the mind of the beholder?
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Re: Illusions

Postby snowheight » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:59 am

rachMiel wrote:What about self? The sense one has of being an enduring evolving individual entity that was born, will live out its life, and die.

On the one hand, this is all self-evidently true: We are all born, we all live, we all die. We all evolve = change, both physically and mentally. Each of us has a unique body and mind: thoughts, emotions, memories. When I slipped in the driveway yesterday and hurt my arm, none of you felt it. Likewise, none of you knows what I'm thinking/feeling right now.

But is that the end of the story? Or is self an illusion, perhaps the grandest illusion of them all?


Well, one could try closing their right eye and squinting their left .. Image.. but .. .well ...
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Re: Illusions

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:25 am

rachMiel wrote:
KathleenBrugger wrote:You asked about the illusion of standing on a solid surface. That could be enlarged to everything--the table my laptop is resting on seems awfully solid to me!

Depends on the frame of reference, right?

From the FOR of your hand resting on it, the tabletop is solid. From the FOR of your eyes, the tabletop is a color, texture, shape. From the FOR of a quark buzzing around in there somewhere, there is no tabletop.

Is there a "privileged" frame of reference? Or is reality in the mind of the beholder?


Each perspective is limited in their own right. A quark cannot experience what a human experiences, while a human cannot experience what a quark or any other particle experiences. Like you said, from a quark's perspective, there is no table. But, from the human perspective, there is a table.

A quark is merely Being itself as is a tree. It knows nothing other than Being. If you really think about it (no pun intended), it is only human thought which anthromorphizes its very own unique expression by labeling and defining itself relative to something that is 'not it'. Granted, relatively speaking, that's the only way to play, but we likely are the only species who believe ourselves to be something other than Being itself because of identification with thought itself which breaks up reality into parts. Perhaps other animals as well.

There is no privileged frame of reference. I'd prefer to say as opposed to reality is in the mind of the beholder, but rather in the perspective of the beholder.

And that beholder is any and every thing in existence, from every and any possible vantage point. 8)
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Re: Illusions

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:23 am

I love this part:

It is only human arrogance, and the fact that the lives of plants unfold in what amounts to a much slower dimension of time, that keep us from appreciating their intelligence and consequent success.


Granted, I wouldn't call it human arrogance as much as human ignorance or the human limitations.

I love that part too.
I wonder why are you making excuses, watering down the quality that 'separates' us from all other species in the same intelligent connectedness, and projects an illusion of superiority?

I would use human arrogance, it's not as if the evidence is hidden from us. If we choose to ignore it, in favour of thinking we are the supreme species and that we have superior rights etc, that is arrogance in the sense of this definition
making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights.
.

If we do not appreciate the intelligence and consequent success when it's right there in front of our noses, if we do not appreciate the many ways in which all the roots and earth and species are intertwined, and that our own survival depends on the healthy nature of the trees and plants and the interconnectedness of all life on Earth, that's where human arrogance oversteps their 'rights' and their own intelligence.

They'd rather be superior in importance than face the facts. That's not ignorance, or even a human limitation for me, that is arrogance - false claims and pretensions.
Last edited by smiileyjen101 on Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illusions

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:24 am

KB said: Oooh I love that. I will be meditating on where the tree stops and the earth starts for some time!


When you're done doing that, see if you can meditate on where the tree stops and you start - energetically feeding into and out of each other.
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Re: Illusions

Postby rachMiel » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:22 pm

The deeper you look the more the boundaries between "independent" objects become fuzzy.

Per quantum theory, the field of every particle is infinite. Talk about connection! But ... the field weakens exponentially with distance. So to say that this is science proving that every particle is essentially one is wishful New Agey misinterpretation of quantum physics. Which is not to say that every particle is NOT one ... ;-)
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Re: Illusions

Postby rachMiel » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:28 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:There is no privileged frame of reference. I'd prefer to say as opposed to reality is in the mind of the beholder, but rather in the perspective of the beholder.

And that beholder is any and every thing in existence, from every and any possible vantage point. 8)

So where does that leave the Search for Truth? A search I'd say all of us in this forum are on, ja? Is the answer that there are an infinity of answers, one for each FOR/perspective?
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Re: Illusions

Postby rachMiel » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:34 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:If we do not appreciate the intelligence and consequent success when it's right there in front of our noses, if we do not appreciate the many ways in which all the roots and earth and species are intertwined, and that our own survival depends on the healthy nature of the trees and plants and the interconnectedness of all life on Earth, that's where human arrogance oversteps their 'rights' and their own intelligence.

They'd rather be superior in importance than face the facts. That's not ignorance, or even a human limitation for me, that is arrogance - false claims and pretensions.

Could be the writer was using the Buddhist take on ignorance, which refers to root misunderstandings -- such as the existence of a real and enduring self -- which in turn lead to arrogance, hatred, violence, separation, etc.
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Re: Illusions

Postby KathleenBrugger » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:58 pm

ashley72 wrote:A very subtle illusion I've become aware of is variation of projecting onto others.

As example:

You may be feeling nervous or awkward when talking to someone.... you first have this judgment about your own self-concept, because the person is close by and within earshot of your own self-talk, you then falsely project that self-concept onto the other person and attribute your own self-concept to their own self-talk.

image example https://www.dropbox.com/s/4yeo4c9okjwdjzz/speech_bubble_faces.jpg?dl=0

These physical illusions are amusing, but I think Ashley has brought up another interesting type of illusion--that created by our mental projection on other people. I've been thinking about this, and thought I'd share an example from my life. For a long time I was shy. I would hold back in social situations, and then think other people were standoffish, even cold. After many years of self-questioning, I started emerging from that shyness--I realized shyness was a very self-absorbed, narcissistic attitude. A shy person basically expects other people to help her out, to do all the work of reaching out.

So what was happening: I was cold and standoffish and calling it "shy." I was projecting my own personality onto others. Later, when I got over myself, some of these same people who I had thought were cold to me, turned out to be quite friendly. Their remote attitude was the projection of my own insecurities.
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Re: Illusions

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:17 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:There is no privileged frame of reference. I'd prefer to say as opposed to reality is in the mind of the beholder, but rather in the perspective of the beholder.

And that beholder is any and every thing in existence, from every and any possible vantage point. 8)

So where does that leave the Search for Truth? A search I'd say all of us in this forum are on, ja? Is the answer that there are an infinity of answers, one for each FOR/perspective?


Well, yes and no as I see it.

Yes, in the sense that I'd say experience is Being experienced from any and every possible point of view, which means there is no actual "objective reality out there", only perspectives.

However, at the same time, objectively speaking, there is a grander perspective. That perspective is available in part to each of us as merely the 'what IS'. It is is Isness itself which we are as Being. We ARE Truth. We are Truth expressing itself as various forms. There is nothing separate than your experience as Being, right? It's not you AND the form. The form is your own unique expression of Truth. So what is truth then, other than YOU?

Truth is fractally, the greater perspective of totality. Meaning, each of us can only grasp a small portion as human beings alone, which is why our perspectives are subjective. But, when we start to become more accepting and more embracing of that which we don't understand (other perspectives that differ from our own), we start to become more unlimited in my experience. As we become more unlimited, we come closer to aligning with truth, which is merely our nature as Being. But, truth has always been our nature, even when we are not really aligning with it.
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Re: Illusions

Postby KathleenBrugger » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:30 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
KB said: Oooh I love that. I will be meditating on where the tree stops and the earth starts for some time!


When you're done doing that, see if you can meditate on where the tree stops and you start - energetically feeding into and out of each other.

Thought that was the obvious progression of the meditation, but I guess its good you spelled it out. :D Although I would have defined it a little more broadly: there are no lines, no boundaries.
Last edited by KathleenBrugger on Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illusions

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:55 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
I love this part:

It is only human arrogance, and the fact that the lives of plants unfold in what amounts to a much slower dimension of time, that keep us from appreciating their intelligence and consequent success.


Granted, I wouldn't call it human arrogance as much as human ignorance or the human limitations.

I love that part too.
I wonder why are you making excuses, watering down the quality that 'separates' us from all other species in the same intelligent connectedness, and projects an illusion of superiority?

I would use human arrogance, it's not as if the evidence is hidden from us. If we choose to ignore it, in favour of thinking we are the supreme species and that we have superior rights etc, that is arrogance in the sense of this definition


Eh, I guess. But, I mean, what you call 'human arrogance' to me, is merely a product of our ignorance (aka, conditioning). Yes, it's always available (the awakening to a greater perspective), but so many of us are so caught up in our minds, that we can't see the forest for the trees, and as someone who once was this 'arrogant', I can understand where this ignorance stems from.

Ultimately, arrogance/ignorance is fine in my book. Arrogance stems from ignorance as I see it and perhaps ignorance stems from arrogance at the same time.
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