Are You Enlightened?

[Webwanderer]

Reading a bible is on my to do list. But I think "sin" is meant to mean what makes one suffer. Nothing to do with moral judgements I think. The clarity of abiding as true identity as awareness leads to knowing that the personal sense of self causes suffering. Therefore any action aligned with that sense likely to be dropped, because why bother. The action that is described as loving is aligned with the attributes of awareness as being accepting, open, all embracing, peaceful, well...loving really.

The way I read it is that the Bible origins of the concept of sin comes from Genesis at a point where Adam and Eve were told they could enjoy the all the fruits of the Garden, except for the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Of that they were told to stay away.

So what is this fruit that God told them to stay away from? Is not the knowledge of good and evil a perspective of judgment that some things are right and others wrong? Remember, they were warned not to go there. Once they consumed (embodied) the forbidden knowledge, they began living in sin. They no longer saw life in terms of the energy of cause and effect, but in terms of right and wrong. They were "off the mark' of what was essential truth.

Researching the word 'sin' reveals it comes from an old archery term 'syn', which means 'off the mark'. Apply that to an understanding of spiritual perspective and it brings a wonderful clarity and freedom to our perspective of daily living. There's nothing wrong with living in sin. It's just a limited perspective of cause and effect. The pain and suffering one derives from such living is generally self correcting over time. Suffer enough pain and we ask "why me". If we ask it honestly, the answers are profound.

WW

[smiileyjen101]

Researching the word 'sin' reveals it comes from an old archery term 'syn', which means 'off the mark'. Apply that to an understanding of spiritual perspective and it brings a wonderful clarity and freedom to our perspective of daily living. There's nothing wrong with living in sin. It's just a limited perspective of cause and effect. The pain and suffering one derives from such living is generally self correcting over time. Suffer enough pain and we ask "why me". If we ask it honestly, the answers are profound.

^Profound in itself ww.

Being in and accepting the moment leaves little room for being 'off the mark'.
You have to step into your mind and start creating expectations and judgements for that, then the possibility for 'wrong thinking' can occur.

[snowheight]

Nothing can substitute a healthy dose of common sense in these lofty matters.

Eckhart knows of his life before his shift and his life now. He knows they are different. The difference is that "before" enlightenment there was a complex belief in "Ulrich Tolle, person." After enightenment, that belief was exposed as a fiction. The word "enlightenment" has been around and was the best one he could use...he also uses "shifted." He can judge for himself the extent of his change.

Words and concepts, like "enlightenment", etc. are products of the mind...and used to communicate, individual mind to individual mind. This whole forum presupposes minds. Truth has to leak in around the edges.

Andy

Great point Ash. I used to work for a car mechanic who would growl about the lack of common-sense in "kids these days". The whole idea of common-sense is one of those hidden non-dualistic gems in Western culture as it refers to what one knows without thought or conception.

Well said. I agree that not all apparent sin is sin. An enlightened man may kill. Killing an out of control man who broke into your house and is about to do serious harm to your family is different from killing someone for their money or as initiation into a group or clan. Assault out of pure anger or malice is different that giving someone a swift right hook in the moment because they are truly out of line.

whoops! MORE common-sense!

Once we recognize the nature of ego identification, we are free to engage with life in more understanding ways. Not so much as to pound it into others that they don't exist, but to point out far better ways, through a clearer perspective, in which they can engage with others and enjoy life. Love flows more freely when one is awake simply because we have a more unified sense of being. That presumes of course, that one doesn't stop at what they are not, but clarifies and deepens into a sense of what they are.

I'm reminded yet again of this author's repeated reference to the notion of "taking the next step when there is no place left to go". Perspective persists even beyond the "re-cognition", as Ananda put it, of our "felt oneness with Being" (ET's definition of enlightenment).

[Sighclone]

Just an administartive comment. This thread has meandered fairly far from the original topic. But that's wonderful! In everyday life, conversations drift around to points and areas of mutual interest and nobody judges them...yes we often seem to return to the topic of "little me," in all its forms...so what. It's all good!

Andy

[snowheight]

Well then, to stay on point, and to match your courage Andy, I'm going to give an answer that is from a perspective rooted squarely in the Middle Kingdom of everyday mind. (... remember, although the first post was mine, the question was, as suggested in that first post, from all, to all ...)

No, I'm not permanently enlightened, although I would say I've had an awakening experience, and (paradoxically), over time, the recognition of the non-existence of a separate doer is something which is more likely to be felt and lived for any given moment.

[Sighclone]

We cannot experience the enlightenment of another. We can compare notes, describe our experiences, attempt broad generalizations and probably note personal progress / regression. So when eputkonen says he is enlightened, all I can assume is that something has permanently changed for him, at a deep level of awareness, and that he does not "suffer."

If I still notice frustration arising from time to time, is that the final indicator that I am utterly endarkened?

Maybe we need a checklist...(that has been done before here with no conclusive agreement.) Or maybe that's impossible, and silly.

Speaking only for myself, I do like to hear others' stories of personal shifting, particularly if they make very assertive statements about spiritual truth.

Andy

[walken]

So when eputkonen says he is enlightened, all I can assume is that something has permanently changed for him"

When awareness becomes aware of itself the person is annihilated. I don't know if I'd call death a "change".

If I still notice frustration arising from time to time, is that the final indicator that I am utterly endarkened?

I get frustration too. Realize that's just a trick of the mind. You don't have to believe it. Watch the frustration arise (without your doing) and see it for what it is. Just another unconscious thought pattern.

[snowheight]

So, to revisit this after a few years of meditation and correspondence, I'd say that while everyone is already enlightened this doesn't mean that every person is an enlightened individual. In fact, it sort of means the opposite of that, but not quite.

In terms of intellect -- a head answer -- it turns out that the question "are you enlightened?" is polysemantic on the meaning of the pronoun. Context, in this case is everything, or more aptly, everything and nothing.

[snowheight]

From elsewhere:

I've noticed this happening in the past in my own thought process: ".. hmmm ... who is it that's seeking validation, and of what?". Isn't there a very very obvious point of self-reflection available there? Anyone? Anyone?

The question "am I enlightened?", directed outward, at other minds, is a question that answers itself.

The fact of the movement for validation is, by it's fact alone, an invalidation.

If you have to ask, the answer's pretty obviously no. It's interesting to notice when this movement occurs, and, as already admitted, I'm no stranger to noticing this in myself.

[Onceler]

I am. Enlightening

[Webwanderer]

I am enlightened!..... (relatively speaking....)

WW

[DavidB]

Are You Enlightened?

No.

[snowheight]

I am enlightened!..... (relatively speaking....)

WW

Well, I dunno' nothin' 'bout nothin' but I'll say that it's a d@mn good thing that there's a place on the internet with this much sanity and compassion all packed into one place.

My Bashar-bashing notwithstanding (sorry! I just kant help myself!) .. you do have my admiration sir.