It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Manifesting your reality or the Law of Attraction

Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Onceler » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:58 pm

I believe Coriolis is making a point about, not the LoA itself, but the vapid manner in which folks talk about it as a gateway to wealth, health, and material gain, etc.....as if that's all there is. On the flip side, I don't see wealth fulfillment as a necessarily bad thing, if that's where ones course and curiosity takes them.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby coriolis » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:22 pm

Yes, you said it better than I did.

Thanks.


The principle, as a principle, stands independent of those who market it as a pop culture quick fix to get the "stuff you want".

They could market gravity similarly I suppose:

Just throw that gold nugget in your hand up into the air and watch it magically return to you signifying that the universe wanted you to have it all along!
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:29 pm

Onceler wrote:I believe Coriolis is making a point about, not the LoA itself, but the vapid manner in which folks talk about it as a gateway to wealth, health, and material gain, etc.....as if that's all there is.

I do understand the point Coriolis is making. But if that is all there is, the (vapid) manner in which 'some' folks present it, then he's missing the real value of understanding LoA.

I agree that there are those out there who try to appeal not to understanding LoA's broader scope, but only to 'get the stuff' mentality. Anyone however, who looks deeply into LoA will realize that its greater value lies in awakening consciousness. Because the same rules that apply to wealth creation also apply to alignment and gaining greater clarity.

It's not about the stuff. It's about knowledge of being and the rules under which life unfolds.

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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:38 pm

I agree with Webby that understanding in awareness is different to just hearing attractive propositions, the devil is in the detail and in our levels of awareness and willingness to be totally honest.

Many wise understandings have been equally mis- or under - or skewedly represented. In societies / cultures the 'ruling' philosophies will colour the describing and the teaching. In peaceful loving societies karma is not a punitive and vengeful notion that it is in punitive and vengeful societies, in sharing of abundance societies loa is not singularly beneficial to one at the cost of another. In natural cycle awareness reap as you sow embraces external influence not as 'bad news' so much as realities, not as 'punishment' and not as reward, but in acceptance and working with 'what is'.

Dan Millman detailed many 'natural laws' that have been skewed in a variety of ways in philosophies and in religions and to support cultural biases, in his book 'the Life you were born to live'. Even the 'law of the Present Moment' was covered before ET wrote the Power of Now. When seen in conjunction with the other natural laws the wider view and place and workings of them individually and in balance, make more sense. Of course folks can latch onto and blindly run with one law, or even a few aspects of that, but the law of Balance will have its effect as much as any other 'law'.

Dan Millman: the life you were born to live
P320
“Human laws form a basis of social agreement and social order, but human laws are only pale reflections of a higher order of laws sewn into the fabric of existence. These laws govern the movement of the earth, the cycle of seasons, the forces of nature and the structure of the atom itself. Nature didn’t make these laws; nature only reveals and demonstrates them. The great laws existed before humanity, before nature.”

“To their music, even the galaxies dance”


There was a topic on it ages ago, it was time and place specific so it may be dated by that. The LOA does not stand alone as a force, but it can with understanding it, increase our self awareness in terms of the experiences we create and apply our awareness of the present moment to our experience.

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9381 for the 'other' laws.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Onceler » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:25 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Onceler wrote:I believe Coriolis is making a point about, not the LoA itself, but the vapid manner in which folks talk about it as a gateway to wealth, health, and material gain, etc.....as if that's all there is.

I do understand the point Coriolis is making. But if that is all there is, the (vapid) manner in which 'some' folks present it, then he's missing the real value of understanding LoA.

I agree that there are those out there who try to appeal not to understanding LoA's broader scope, but only to 'get the stuff' mentality. Anyone however, who looks deeply into LoA will realize that its greater value lies in awakening consciousness. Because the same rules that apply to wealth creation also apply to alignment and gaining greater clarity.

It's not about the stuff. It's about knowledge of being and the rules under which life unfolds.

WW


Agreed. I guess I have a preference for framing it with different language. Rather than the Law of Attraction, I think it is more accurate to say the Law of Attention. Our attention is possibly the only thing we have some control over. Where we put our attention is critical to how we perceive the world and what we attract to us. We can choose, and learn, to shift our attention away from negative content, not out of avoidance but preference. You did this beautifully when you respond to Danny W, I think it was, in another thread. You reframed his negative outlook in a more positive way.

We can't magically think our way to joy and bliss, but I think we can become more facile with attention and begin to subtly reframe our experience into a more positive one. I know this is basically what you have been saying for years, as I said I think it's a matter of language for me and distancing from a personal negative association with the phrase LoA.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby smiileyjen101 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:07 am

Onceler said: Rather than the Law of Attraction, I think it is more accurate to say the Law of Attention. Our attention is possibly the only thing we have some control over. Where we put our attention is critical to how we perceive the world and what we attract to us. We can choose, and learn, to shift our attention away from negative content, not out of avoidance but preference.


Intention - awareness of our own 'power' source, who we really are, is as much a factor in and as and how and where we put our attention.

In terms of awareness, capacity & willingness until we learn the truth is relative we will judge and gossip and make enemy, obstacle, means to an end of all things. When we know who we really are, and accept ourselves and others respectfully as perfect within different (not better or worse, just different) levels of awareness, capacity and willingness, then we are open to aware directing of attention while remembering our purer intentions - to be.

Then one moves into aware doing, consistent with intention.

In finishing Don Miguel & Don Jose Ruiz's Fifth Agreement, I had to laugh. I put it down some time ago, struggling with it and wondering why it wasn't 'meshing' as Don Miguel's Four Agreements had - I started to wonder - to judge whether Don Jose's input was muddying the 'connection', but it wasn't him, it was me... I was not yet ready, not yet open to the further teachings. The ole notion of when the student is ready the teacher will appear, resistance falls away etc

In a totally string theory 'mess' when I reached a place of authenticity again - in intention and in attention, the connection not only was made seamlessly, but hilariously describing the 'warrior struggle' that I had been going through.

Perfection is always perfect, we just don't realise it if our intention and our attention are at odds.

Similar to teachings in the above, we go through stages of awareness, capacity & willingness, remembering who we really are and being authentic and honest with ourselves and others. They call them the 'First Attention - that of the gossip (shared not judgementally but just 'is') the Second Attention - that of the warrior for the truth, and the Third Attention - the one we find when we've had our last Judgement --- like in the nde, not imposed upon us, but created by us - this they call the not better or worse than anyone else 'Master' when the stories are known as stories, when perspectives are respected and when we know we are creating our own experiences.

The LOA & presence is as much dependent upon awareness, capacity & willingness as any other thing. We can insulate, we can be blind, we can refuse to see or to hear, or we can be incapable.

When we have our last judgement that 'tension' falls away, only then are intention and attention seamlessly one.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:27 pm

Onceler wrote:I believe Coriolis is making a point about, not the LoA itself, but the vapid manner in which folks talk about it as a gateway to wealth, health, and material gain, etc.....as if that's all there is. On the flip side, I don't see wealth fulfillment as a necessarily bad thing, if that's where ones course and curiosity takes them.



I think that everyone can agree that we can influence or lives greatly by the way we think. After all, psychological stress comes from our thinking about a situation, rather than the situation itself. But when people try to extrapolate influencing one's environment with fairy tales of being one's own genie in the bottle some of these teachings of LOA begins to fall apart.

On a micro level, this could be making the lights all turn green going to work. The problem with this is that we are all interconnected. It is extremely egocentric to think that the genie is going to make all the lights turn green for us, so that our work commute is the best it can be. For this to happen, then all of the other commuters needs must be ignored and these other people just become figures to be used in our egocentric play.

One of the tenets of LOA is that on a micro level, we attract to us what we think/feel and on a macro level this happens to larger groups/societies/regions. On a macro level this is extremely egocentric, because if a region is poor, LOA's law is then because as a collective the people of that region are thinking poverty. Not only does that invalidate the people of the region and lay blame on them for their poverty, but it also is an immature way to think this is how poverty just arises. It doesn't take into account the possible economical exploitation of one country over another which often ensures that the country will remain poor due to cannibalistic capitalism that often arises from this type of exploitation.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Onceler » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:14 pm

Agreed. The manner in which LOA is portrayed by some, is often indistinguishable from first world privilege. I suspect we are so inculcated with privilege we can't see how deep it goes, and it's power, and we believe that our circumstances are a result of our masterful attitude and right thinking.

But even privilege has its downside and folks still manage to feel miserable and even suicidal in a land of plenty. It really is about how we perceive whatever happens, deprivation and plenty.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby smiileyjen101 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:04 am

beginnersmind said:
On a micro level, this could be making the lights all turn green going to work. The problem with this is that we are all interconnected. It is extremely egocentric to think that the genie is going to make all the lights turn green for us, so that our work commute is the best it can be. For this to happen, then all of the other commuters needs must be ignored and these other people just become figures to be used in our egocentric play.


If we are grateful for the (random or programmed) lights when they turn green, then we will notice more of them, and so yes, have the best commute that we can given the reality. Rather than bemoaning (victim mode) the lights NEVER turn green for me, which is obviously not true.
So I do celebrate the green lights and I acknowledge the part of the red lights - thanks for helping me not to crash into other vehicles red lights!!! Both of which focus on the IS, the IS of the commute, not the bemoan of the commute.

In that way, we do sow what we reap - we do attract a lovely commute - we are a part of the process.
in this instance the pon and loa are exactly the same experience.

One of the tenets of LOA is that on a micro level, we attract to us what we think/feel and on a macro level this happens to larger groups/societies/regions.

Well if folks are focussed on the problems, instead of the solutions, absolutely.
We resonate at the same vibration as our thoughts.

When someone starts focussing on the solutions, then we see the magic occur :wink:
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:19 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
beginnersmind said:
On a micro level, this could be making the lights all turn green going to work. The problem with this is that we are all interconnected. It is extremely egocentric to think that the genie is going to make all the lights turn green for us, so that our work commute is the best it can be. For this to happen, then all of the other commuters needs must be ignored and these other people just become figures to be used in our egocentric play.


If we are grateful for the (random or programmed) lights when they turn green, then we will notice more of them, and so yes, have the best commute that we can given the reality. Rather than bemoaning (victim mode) the lights NEVER turn green for me, which is obviously not true.
So I do celebrate the green lights and I acknowledge the part of the red lights - thanks for helping me not to crash into other vehicles red lights!!! Both of which focus on the IS, the IS of the commute, not the bemoan of the commute.

In that way, we do sow what we reap - we do attract a lovely commute - we are a part of the process.
in this instance the pon and loa are exactly the same experience.

Eric: You ignored the part about all the other interconnected people involved in the commute that would not seem to have a say in the egocentric play. And what you're discussing is putting attention and practicing gratitude on WHAT IS, rather than trying to use the genie to make the lights green for you. In this way PON and LOA are not the exact same experience.

LOA speaks of being grateful but the focus is not just on what one has, but being grateful because a wish has come true.

One of the tenets of LOA is that on a micro level, we attract to us what we think/feel and on a macro level this happens to larger groups/societies/regions.

Well if folks are focussed on the problems, instead of the solutions, absolutely.
We resonate at the same vibration as our thoughts.

When someone starts focussing on the solutions, then we see the magic occur :wink:


Eric: This doesn't say anything and is merely a new age platitude. You completely ignored how social stratification; institutional issues, cannibalistic capitalism and national exploitation play a role in all of this on a macro level. It is very easy to spout "spiritual" platitudes in the comfort of having all the basic necessities of life and then some as is so common in first world countries; to imply that if people of poorer countries would focus on solutions rather than problems and then resonate with the vibration of their thoughts that magic would occur.

Being blind to other people's suffering in the wake of exploitation in favor of some new age Hay House book platitudes is in my opinion, not spirituality.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:51 pm

What I see too often in opinions is how emotionally invested beliefs create the perception of reality. Then comes the search for evidence, fueled by broad generalizations and even straw men, to support those beliefs. If we are honest, we will consider what we point to as evidence and review it for embellishment. Misperceptions thrive in embellishment.

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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:06 pm

Eric, I'm going to put aside the traffic light example for now, because I think it can be somewhat confusing as a starting point, plus while Jen makes very valid points, I think there's more to it than just "changing lights with our thoughts". First of all, it's not just our thoughts. Our thoughts alone really don't have much power without the emotional component to it, which is what beliefs are. It's core beliefs in my opinion which are the focal point of our vibration and creation. Our vibration can only change through a thorough understanding of where our beliefs stem from.

But, in regards to LoA, there's a lot of really poor understandings of it out there. As far as your own posts, I see you (in the past too) often pointing out the more common "mis perceptions" of LoA and you make some very valid points. But, that's likely because you're seemingly barking up a very limited avenue of understanding of this subject and understandably so, because of the common "stigma" of what LoA is. I used to think the very same way, until I had no choice, but to see it in action in my own life and in regards to my own health especially. So, I'm going to point you to a thread I created, which I feel gives a more thorough analysis of LoA, so as to differentiate from the common, popular, interpretations of what people believe it to be, compared to what it actually seems more likely to be, (only from my own experience).

Let me know what you think . Feel free to completely disagree. I don't claim my perspective to be any more valid than anyone else's but I do feel I've gained a lot of insight from my experience on this subject and feel confident enough talking about it with others. I hope it can provide at least somewhat greater clarity on what vibration actually is. It truly (in my own experience) comes down to a willingness and openness to explore.

http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=13463
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:48 am

Eric: This doesn't say anything and is merely a new age platitude. You completely ignored how social stratification; institutional issues, cannibalistic capitalism and national exploitation play a role in all of this on a macro level. It is very easy to spout "spiritual" platitudes in the comfort of having all the basic necessities of life and then some as is so common in first world countries; to imply that if people of poorer countries would focus on solutions rather than problems and then resonate with the vibration of their thoughts that magic would occur.

It's also easy to sprout political and cultural ideologies and think they have no energetic resonances.

I'm not the one who brought the energy and awareness down to the level of traffic lights and starving people.... :? If a thing is true, it is universally and across all differentials - applicable.

If one sets their level of awareness of a thing so tightly as to not let new information in, of course the level will stay exactly where it is.

While some think they know about the loa from the 'Secret' versioning - which absolutely yes, is materialistic and myopic, that's actually not my experience of it, and certainly not the way I view or work with it.

I can pretty much identify the threads of energy running from personal experience to personal experience depending on the amount of positive or negative energies that I put into the experience - for me though I realise that I am co-creating, according to yes, my knowledge, yes my awareness, capacity & willingness with regard to what is - and the PON and the sanctity of the present moment absolutely has a bearing on it. No thing acts in isolation.

My primary 'reference' source, for that and the Present Moment predates both PON (& ET's 'awakening') and the hyped up 'Secret'.
Eric: You ignored the part about all the other interconnected people involved in the commute that would not seem to have a say in the egocentric play.

I didn't ignore them at all - I don't speak for others and I'm happy to share / take turns. It need not be egocentric.

The fact remains though - IF I stay present with what is in this moment in a mode of acceptance, enjoyment &/or enthusiasm red lights, green lights .... all have their logical place, and accepting that is the beginning of peace within it. Then I will have an enjoyable commute. Anyone can do this, it's not egocentric it's just being aware of the thoughts > behaviours > attitudes you're spending time in.

There is no 'genie' there is just us operating at a frequency of energy and recognising like energy and its appearances. Either we become aware of that and work with it, or we blunder around blind. No choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.

In terms of
Being blind to other people's suffering ...
I'm hardly blind, I just disagree that bitching about it and blaming 'others' will change anything.

One can not, does not, will not, change anything in their life if they continue making enemy, obstacle, or means to an end of a person, thing or situation. (ET-speak if you are doing this you will notice the suffering you are experiencing, and the suffering it is creating for those around you). If one is holding the 'victim' pattern, or 'problem focus' that will be the attitude & the experience. Our experiences do respond to what we feed on, and feed in to, the experience.

LOA speaks of being grateful but the focus is not just on what one has, but being grateful because a wish has come true.

I don't know where your information is coming from, either you are grateful, or you're not. Why do you think greed occurs, even in the rich? Why do you think victim-mentality occurs in those who will not be a part of the solution?

There is an old thread here about ... and other laws, given that loa was getting for me, over importance among the natural laws that play out in the universe. One does not work in a vacuum.
The world is not to be put in order; the word is order, incarnate.
It is for us to harmonize with this order. Henry Miller


Universal 'laws' like the law of attraction is not some punishment or reward system anymore than the law of gravity is - it just is, what it is and you can work with it, or you can ignore it. It is just the natural consequences unfolding. If we understand the natural consequences & the energies of influence, then we can work more awarely, and also more response ably, in harmonizing with the order that is. Like the scientifically accepted 'laws' all universal laws work universally whether you know about them or not.

Laws of > flexibility - choices - responsibility- balance - process - patterns - discipline - perfection - the present moment - no judgements - faith - expectations - honesty - higher will - intuition - action - cycles. All of these, just like gravity have natural energetic 'consequences' depending on how we interact with them.

If you want to see some of the real life 'magic' --- what about drs without borders, what about the bare foot colleges, what about band aid, what about any response that has focussed on providing solutions to the problems instead of playing helpless victim to the problems, even if these problems are not ours.

The first one I can recall was as a child collecting the metalic milk bottle caps to be melted down & raise money for the children in the Biafran crisis. Organised by a kid's tv show and it brought clean water to villages in need. It's far easier to just sit back blaming socio-political agendas than it is to actually participate in the solution building. But I can tell you now, none of those things will change without action - and if the action is not done in acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm it will just create more suffering & that is amply evident around the world.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:23 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:Eric, I'm going to put aside the traffic light example for now, because I think it can be somewhat confusing as a starting point, plus while Jen makes very valid points, I think there's more to it than just "changing lights with our thoughts". First of all, it's not just our thoughts. Our thoughts alone really don't have much power without the emotional component to it, which is what beliefs are. It's core beliefs in my opinion which are the focal point of our vibration and creation. Our vibration can only change through a thorough understanding of where our beliefs stem from.

But, in regards to LoA, there's a lot of really poor understandings of it out there. As far as your own posts, I see you (in the past too) often pointing out the more common "mis perceptions" of LoA and you make some very valid points. But, that's likely because you're seemingly barking up a very limited avenue of understanding of this subject and understandably so, because of the common "stigma" of what LoA is. I used to think the very same way, until I had no choice, but to see it in action in my own life and in regards to my own health especially. So, I'm going to point you to a thread I created, which I feel gives a more thorough analysis of LoA, so as to differentiate from the common, popular, interpretations of what people believe it to be, compared to what it actually seems more likely to be, (only from my own experience).

Let me know what you think . Feel free to completely disagree. I don't claim my perspective to be any more valid than anyone else's but I do feel I've gained a lot of insight from my experience on this subject and feel confident enough talking about it with others. I hope it can provide at least somewhat greater clarity on what vibration actually is. It truly (in my own experience) comes down to a willingness and openness to explore.

http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=13463



EL, I don't have time to read your thread right now, but when I get a chance. I think it is easy just to say that I have a misunderstanding with LOA or a superficial knowledge of it, but I assure you, I have already been through the LOA stage. I've read the Charles Haneel's; The Robert Colliers, The James Allen (which in my opinion his book "From Poverty to Power" is his best since it focuses on spiritually, with the meaning talking about inner spiritual poverty to inner spiritual power); Abraham-Hicks, The Secret, Napoleon Hill, Michael Beckwith, etc., etc. And while Michael Beckwith has started to modify his approach to LOA (possibly due to the criticisms of it) there is one author that I am aware of who while a teacher of LOA is also a critic of the many teachings of it. That is Rick Jarvis and he speaks about some of the same criticisms I began to have of it, and that is the fact that we are interconnected, and the egocentricity that within LOA teachings.

So yes, I think it is much easier just to say I don't understand the premises of LOA rather than looking at the holes within those premises.

I've never said that LOA is completely wrong. I have said that we can greatly influence our lives by the way we think. What I also said is, when we take this truth and then extrapolate it to become some special genie in the bottle for our manifestation purposes and I'll add, take quasi quantum physics as an example to prove that this is true, then people are in fantasy land in which people's lives, societies, social injustices, and disasters even are explained away through oversimplified LOA "thinking".

EL, without first reading your post, I'll assume you're talking about your own health. Can we influence our health through our thinking and feelings? Of course! I've done it myself. Stress which comes from our thoughts can produce an over abundance of cortisol and other chemicals, which can break down our body's natural defenses. It also keeps the body's sympathetic nervous system in the fight or flight mode. Laughter, meditation, Qigong, etc. can do the opposite by releasing endorphins and activating the parasympathetic nervous system which naturally puts our body in rest mode.

My own step mom has terrible health with just about everything wrong with her and she has developed Parkinson's. I firmly believe that she has caused much of her bad health due to her thinking which results in behavior and habits (cause and effect). And the one thing she loves to do is to tell everyone within earshot how bad her health is. She thrives on it, because as Eckhart has said, she finds her identity in it. She get attention from it.

But again, there is a line between greatly influencing one's environment and a personal genie in a bottle.

One of the tenets taught in LOA is that it is a law that never stops working. It is always working and what you think about, you bring about whether good or bad. On the micro level, this is to the individual. On the macro level this law works within individuals. What the collective thinks about it brings about. Examples of a collective people praying or thinking of a certain thing to happen are often used as examples of this in LOA teachings.

So, the test of this is this: If LOA laws never stop working and what you think about, you bring about on both a micro and macro level, then:

1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it.

2. How about the people in Flint Michigan right now? Has this poisoning of the water resulted in LOA thinking?

3. What about civilians killed in Iraq, was it their thinking that they brought about this?

4. Or the poverty in Africa? Is this simply due to their thinking?

5. Or the Chinese workers who finally tried to kill themselves, due to the working and living conditions set up by Apple Inc.?
Were these conditions set up merely by their thinking? Thankfully, Apple finally set up nets around the living quarters to save those lives :?

Again, while thinking can greatly influence one's life and environment, simply writing off events or situations as a result of LOA is a rather superficial, and over simplified POV, and it is rather disrespectful and doesn't achieve any change.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:29 pm

SmileyJen:
If you want to see some of the real life 'magic' --- what about drs without borders, what about the bare foot colleges, what about band aid, what about any response that has focussed on providing solutions to the problems instead of playing helpless victim to the problems, even if these problems are not ours.

Eric: I don't have much time to respond, but to say this is a result of compassion and being of service. Instead of merely trying to "attract" something to oneself, this is an example of people extending and ACTUALLY DOING something. And it certainly doesn't address what I spoke about in trying to reconcile LOA with these events or the events I mentioned to Enlightened.
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