Creating change....from within

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby dijmart » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:24 am

Hi jen,
I can see you're pretty passionate about this subject. I don't mean any disrespect here but I find what I have to deal with to be plenty. It's not famine and violence granted, but I have a pretty full plate. Aren't you the one who has said in several posts that there is no right or wrong? Everything is allowed?

I find there are so many unconscious movements in the world, so many issues. Everywhere you look (yes, even in America) I really wouldn't even know where to start. So, how I deal with it IS acceptance, I accept that for now this is the world we live in, for whatever reason. I'm not in a financial position to be cutting big checks, I don't have the time or energy to "fight" against anything. That's my reality, that's my truth and I will not wring my hands, fret and worry about everything going on in the world. If that makes me an asshole...well, so be it.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
User avatar
dijmart
 
Posts: 2079
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:25 am

Hey Jen, I love your passion and I so much agree with your premise here, because I know where it stems from, but at the same time, I think you're gravely misinterpreting what's been said in this thread and I'm the one who created the thread, so I take responsibility and the blunt of your post and I think you are really taking stuff out of context and making me sound like an incredible douche who doesn't give a shit about anyone :D and that's so so so far from the point of my post. Let me try to re-hash my points.

First of all, who on earth said the outer shit doesn't matter?? Did you even read the thread? I clearly made that point in my very first post that that is a HUGE problem in the spiritual community that I absolutely disdain.

Second, the friend I referenced went on a diatribe against mindfulness meditation and the new age movement in general (and as I said earlier in the thread, I partially agreed, please re-read). She called it all bullshit because it's not 'real action'. She said spiritual awakening is bullshit itself because it's 'narcissistic' and only happens in the USA. She bashed meditation in general and said that it accomplishes nothing and it's a waste of time as is going within ourselves is also a waste of time and that real change only happens on the outside by treating homeopathically and physical to physical and such and then preceded to use the Syria example for herself by saying that she felt she wasn't do anything positive for action with the world in general. Sorry, you can say what you want, and while I respect your perspective, I personally vehemently disagree with this notion and have no qualms saying so. That aside.....

Everything in this thread was implicating the same thing and I clearly stated this myself.....there is PLENTY we can change on the external and I specifically made that clear.....if change can be made, then absolutely make it. If you are a healer and can make change (such as my friend) then DO it. Travel to where it's needed and do it. Those points could not have been more clear earlier in this thread. There's a million things we can do and that many of us already DO do every single day to make an impact on someone's else life to make change and I clearly, specifically made many of those points myself in this thread.

But, why on earth should we agonize and beat ourselves up and constantly worry and worry and worry and worry over something that we simply can't control like my friend was doing? Worry that we're not doing enough to save the world? Worry that we're not good enough, because we're not taking enough physical action? Unless you are insinuating that we SHOULD worry and all travel to Syria together to do something.....I'm not sure what else you are implying that we should be doing.

I'm not saying 'take no action' and again, I've made that clear in this thread. I'm advocating for people such as myself and my friend (clearly not people who are less fortunate) to STOP worrying.....about what's out of our control, such as the state of the world.....negativity in the news....political BS, being a 'good person' and simply dive into your own projections and your own experience on the inside because that's something we absolutely CAN control in this moment, meaning what we are putting out there where we are aligning our thoughts with.

The other factor.....I'm CLEARLY speaking to myself, my friend and those of us here in the West who constantly worry about what's out of our control and not actual people in concentration camps. I thought that point would have gotten across clearer, but perhaps that's my fault. I think Andy got that point earlier in the thread.

As someone who has suffered from Crohns disease, I understand fully that worrying and worrying is only detrimental to health. The news is so predominately negative that I choose to largely not watch it (I do keep on top of major world issues). That doesn't mean I don't give a shit about the world or that I don't feel compassion towards others in need or that I wouldn't do something to help if I could. I have a lot of plans to give back in service to others in need which I was inspired recently by my health coach and there is plenty I do already such as mentioned earlier in this thread. I don't need to talk about it though publicly to make myself feel like a better person. But, there's a ton you can do to be in service to others. Worrying about what is out of our control is not one of those things.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1897
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby dijmart » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:51 am

As someone who has suffered from Crohns disease, I understand fully that worrying and worrying is only detrimental to health.


Yes, you're correct! I have M.S. and can relate, worry and stress cause dis-ease.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
User avatar
dijmart
 
Posts: 2079
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:49 pm

dijmart wrote:
As someone who has suffered from Crohns disease, I understand fully that worrying and worrying is only detrimental to health.


Yes, you're correct! I have M.S. and can relate, worry and stress cause dis-ease.


Yes, I've healed largely from Crohns, but I have chronic fatigue syndrome as well which inhibits my lifestyle a bit and is caused by stress.

That aside, I'm always so careful when trying to make a point online, because you don't have your own voice to explain what you do mean if it's misinterpreted and so much does get taken out of context so often and it's understandable on an online forum. The premise of this thread was so powerfully to emphasize the notion of "Doing from a place of grounded Being....as opposed to just "Doing out of fear" and blatantly in reference to those in the West who constantly worry about saving the world.....and look how it was taken out of context to imply that we are just 'turning our backs on the world' and ignoring the people who are struggling. I find it so incredible sometimes and so frustrating as well. Oh well.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1897
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby dijmart » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:10 pm

The premise of this thread was so powerfully to emphasize the notion of "Doing from a place of grounded Being....as opposed to just "Doing out of fear" and blatantly in reference to those in the West who constantly worry about saving the world..


I think I should clarify my position. I do act, take action, make change, but I do it within my environment and the people I come into contact with. So doing from a place of being happens daily and I do care for everyone and have compassion for those that suffer, but I also know when I don't have the capacity to help. I can not save the world. When more people awaken they will not participate in the activities that cause suffering to others, this is how the world will change on a larger scale.

I think that the masters know/knew this such as Ramana, nisargadatta, ET, Mooji, Adya...you don't see that they have worried about the world or have done any action to stop the world's problems other then trying to wake people up.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
User avatar
dijmart
 
Posts: 2079
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:55 pm

dijmart wrote:
The premise of this thread was so powerfully to emphasize the notion of "Doing from a place of grounded Being....as opposed to just "Doing out of fear" and blatantly in reference to those in the West who constantly worry about saving the world..


I think I should clarify my position. I do act, take action, make change, but I do it within my environment and the people I come into contact with. So doing from a place of being happens daily and I do care for everyone and have compassion for those that suffer, but I also know when I don't have the capacity to help. I can not save the world. When more people awaken they will not participate in the activities that cause suffering to others, this is how the world will change on a larger scale.

I think that the masters know/knew this such as Ramana, nisargadatta, ET, Mooji, Adya...you don't see that they have worried about the world or have done any action to stop the world's problems other then trying to wake people up.


You don't have to clarify your position Diana or prove yourself to anyone. I understand where you and everyone in this thread are coming from and I agree with all of you. This is such a sensitive issue for me, because I have health issues which prevent me from doing a lot of travel and when people tell me that I don't do enough on the outside, I get hurt by it and I take it personally and maybe it's my own issue, because there's so much I want to do, that I simply can't do right now as I am going through a healing process and I've learned to finally stop agonizing over it and to do all that I CAN do in the meantime, which is delve within myself and make small changes, but part of that process for me is stop my focus on negativity and that largely stems from social media the news.

It's the people in the spiritual community who take some of those teachers messages and twist it around and become so lost in the concept of 'nihilism' and then live in a nihilistic prism where nothing actually happens on the outside of their imaginary bubble, no things exist, no people exist.....that drives me nuts....largely in the neo-advaita community. That's not love. That's what I referenced in my first post and I get the vibe where Jen is coming from, not understanding that's not where WE are coming from here as the premise of this thread.

Constantly putting our attention on what we cannot control is the exact focal point ironically of Eckhart Tolle's teachings and also the focal point of the law of attraction teachings on putting our attention on negativity when it's something out of our grasp.

Wanting to change the world from a western standpoint is very good intention and always stems from compassion, and I was the same way for a number of years when I was so passionate about political change in this country, right before I had my spiritual awakening. I felt like political change was the beginning of me opening my eyes. But without a ground presence in Being, then wanting to change the world, becomes an emotional roller coaster of stress in constantly wanting to do more and more and more and more and not realizing that the world is not apart from you and people run themselves into the ground with stress related disease in constantly feeling the need to do more and more and more and more. When does it end? When do we start to love ourselves enough to realize we don't NEED to save the world if it can't be saved?

I so much disagree with Jen's assertion against the idea of 'the world will wake up when it's ready'. Should we instead, all wake the world up by preaching, by worrying and by believing that we alone must save the world? What will that accomplish? So much of the problems of the world stem from ego and there's only so much we can do.

That's not what Jesus did when he incarnated here. He incarnated with a very basic message.......
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1897
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby dijmart » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:19 pm

Thanks Mike, nice post! :D
Take what you like and leave the rest.
User avatar
dijmart
 
Posts: 2079
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby DavidB » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:24 am

Sighclone wrote:The little story was about David's projection of his own malaise (or joy) onto the world -- each traveler was encouraged to do that, with different results.


Are you referring to me Sighclone?

I understand what you mean by projection, nice story btw. :)

One of the things that definitely changed my life for the better, was the realization that the world (and people in general) appeared to me as I imagined it to be. In the past, I used to be sooo incredibly angry and negative, I hated everyone and everything and especially hated myself, as all these things were the source of my misery and suffering, as I imagined.

It's funny, the more I realized that I was worthy of love, the more I love the world, and the more I want to love people.

Now I do enjoy that love, most definitely, it feels divine. But I (not that there is an I) knows (not that there is anyone knowing) that there is nobody hating, nobody loving, nothing to hate, nothing to love. And in that is the peace that surpasses all understanding.

:)
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
User avatar
DavidB
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:55 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Sighclone » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:27 pm

Yes, DavidB, I was referring to your revealing and helpful post. And, by the way, thread topics always seem to stray, just like conversations -- not a bad thing, and also not bad to have a member pull them back to the original topic, if desired.

I am not among the group that needs to qualify the use of the first person singular ("I".) Even after awakening, we all recognize the egoic identity as being really the only identity recognized by 99% of the world. And the vast majority of our readers and the general public have not had a big awakening event. Moreover, when Adyashanti or ET or any other spiritual teacher, who, for the purpose of this comment, may be considered "Self-realized" uses the "I" word, we know that they are referring to the "body-mind-personality" that "remains." I know teachers who even get nervous about adding "personality" to the remaining entity. But consider the widely varying styles of the modern teachers (I oversimplify here), Nisargadatta: grumpy and irascible and funny, Adya: ever-so-kind, Balsekar: stuffy and haughty, Byron Katie: compassionate and classy, Spira: abstract and a bit snooty, Gary Weber: academic, assertive and driven, and ET: careful and quirky, etc. Different styles, for sure, born from conditioning, home of origin, culture, DNA, etc. All different and unique. And relatively unchanged after awakening (in my opinion and also after reading and talking to a few of these people.) I'm working on an essay titled "Personality: Curious Remains of the Ego." It will talk about lila in maya, or play in the relative world of form.

Very glad to hear that your changed "self-perspective" also revealed a different "world out there" for you.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6183
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:27 pm

Andy, I have an unrelated question for you that I'm going to PM you about. Glad to see you're posting here again.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1897
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby DavidB » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:44 pm

Sighclone wrote:I am not among the group that needs to qualify the use of the first person singular ("I".) Even after awakening, we all recognize the egoic identity as being really the only identity recognized by 99% of the world.


Yes true, no need to qualify. It could get tedious qualifying all the time.

Sighclone wrote:All different and unique. And relatively unchanged after awakening


It's interesting isn't it, how some pretty strong personality remains after awakening. It did strike me as odd that Nisargadatta appeared so grumpy and irascible, and also appeared to be slightly worshiping his deceased teacher.

Sighclone wrote: I'm working on an essay titled "Personality: Curious Remains of the Ego." It will talk about lila in maya, or play in the relative world of form.


Oh nice, are we going to get to read it? :D
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
User avatar
DavidB
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:55 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Sighclone » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:13 am

Oh nice, are we going to get to read it? :D


Yes, but I don't know when I will finish it...thanks for asking.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6183
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Onceler » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:10 am

Sighclone wrote:As ever, Smiiley, great comments. It's especially good to recall that all three are options (accept, change or remove oneself.) (Heck anybody should be able to find an excuse for anything in there...!!) But declaring what another person should do regarding the Syrian refugees, or sex trafficking in Armenia, or a dozen other global atrocities is a grandiose assumption about them, and their path and the universe. Maybe all that one individual needs to do is spend one more day at the meditation retreat to realize that they need to write a big check to the appropriate NGO. Maybe just ten more minutes of navel-staring. For anybody over the age of about twelve, I'm pretty careful about using the word "should." I have no problem suggesting the likely outcome of using oxycontin three days in a row to a 15-year-old grandson, however. But really, do I know for sure that he or she may be best served by a drug-dependent spiral followed by rehab? I may have had some personal Big Spiritual Experiences ... whoopee. But frankly, my dear, I don't know what anybody SHOULD do tomorrow.

The little story was about David's projection of his own malaise (or joy) onto the world -- each traveler was encouraged to do that, with different results.

Andy


Great post, Andy and I agree. The older I get, the less desire I have to give anyone advice or say what they should do. I have given bad advice that' was ostensibly good advice on the surface and which went very wrong when acted upon (notably encouraging my nephew to pursue the woman he loved, only to end up divorced and in jail for 3 years). We just don't know another's context, path, etc....this goes for all of us perhaps, the doers and the those just being.

I liked the story, by the way.
Be present, be pleasant.
User avatar
Onceler
 
Posts: 2201
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:02 am

:D to be clear, I don't recall telling anyone they 'should' anything.

In terms of cause & effect, navel gazing is not going to create external change. Upping the navel gazing IF in order to continue to avoid or ignore the reality is deceptive at best.

I agreed with the value of considering the 'different' perspective, particularly as a native of one set of values / priorities is facing the reality and realising that 'suggested' solutions are just unrealistic at best, and harmful at worst. (& yes best/worst in relativity)


when people tell me that I don't do enough on the outside, I get hurt by it and I take it personally and maybe it's my own issue,


You're right, that is your own issue.
That you can address by soul searching > going within. It is personal in that context. The issues your friend was talking about is a whole other bunch of issues. One issue>action/response does not necessarily apply to the other.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
User avatar
smiileyjen101
 
Posts: 3688
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Sighclone » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:03 pm

From Jen -

You can ignore, you can excuse, you can distract yourself from the reality - but if you really want to BE HERE you have to know shit when you see it, call it what it is and respond to it as it really is... otherwise it just keeps on stinking.

There are three (not one) modalities of awakened doing ----- accept, change or remove yourself from the situation.
If we default to 'accept' before being honest about whether we can change or contribute anything.. we are cheating ourselves and the world of our true, authentic participation in the world.

No one gets out of here alive - and as the now passed Dr Wayne Dyer reminded himself by stitching up his pockets --- you take nothing with you - so there is no reason for being here except to fully live it.


I guess I was reacting to this suggestion to "respond..." by saying that it's hard to know what another's response should be. And that was my overall response to the original post -- maybe navel-staring is the "right" response for a given individual.

I know what feels right for me, and tend to devote my volunteer efforts (time and money) locally, with occasional checks to Amnesty International. Yup, there is local shit and I have called it out a number of times, including at a neighborhood meeting last night. Should my cousin do that, too? Not for me to say.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6183
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron