It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Manifesting your reality or the Law of Attraction

Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:57 pm

BTW, pointing out a central tenet to LOA and criticizing it, is not a straw man argument
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:13 pm

Eric, your entire premise is based on a mis understanding of what LoA actually is. I'm going to point it out below. You're not alone in this belief system and yes, it is your own belief system you've created.

beginnersmind wrote:EL, I don't have time to read your thread right now, but when I get a chance. I think it is easy just to say that I have a misunderstanding with LOA or a superficial knowledge of it, but I assure you, I have already been through the LOA stage. I've read the Charles Haneel's; The Robert Colliers, The James Allen (which in my opinion his book "From Poverty to Power" is his best since it focuses on spiritually, with the meaning talking about inner spiritual poverty to inner spiritual power); Abraham-Hicks, The Secret, Napoleon Hill, Michael Beckwith, etc., etc. And while Michael Beckwith has started to modify his approach to LOA (possibly due to the criticisms of it) there is one author that I am aware of who while a teacher of LOA is also a critic of the many teachings of it. That is Rick Jarvis and he speaks about some of the same criticisms I began to have of it, and that is the fact that we are interconnected, and the egocentricity that within LOA teachings.


I haven't read any of those authors you mention, other than Abraham Hicks and I've used my own experience.

So yes, I think it is much easier just to say I don't understand the premises of LOA rather than looking at the holes within those premises.


Not to say that some of those (perhaps the Secret) give a false impression of the LoA, but perhaps also playing into this, is your interpretation of those teachings where you find the holes. Have you watched Bashar's videos?

I've never said that LOA is completely wrong. I have said that we can greatly influence our lives by the way we think. What I also said is, when we take this truth and then extrapolate it to become some special genie in the bottle for our manifestation purposes and I'll add, take quasi quantum physics as an example to prove that this is true, then people are in fantasy land in which people's lives, societies, social injustices, and disasters even are explained away through oversimplified LOA "thinking".


As I said in my last post, it's not thinking alone....it's beliefs themselves which are the focal point of manifestation.

EL, without first reading your post, I'll assume you're talking about your own health. Can we influence our health through our thinking and feelings? Of course! I've done it myself. Stress which comes from our thoughts can produce an over abundance of cortisol and other chemicals, which can break down our body's natural defenses. It also keeps the body's sympathetic nervous system in the fight or flight mode. Laughter, meditation, Qigong, etc. can do the opposite by releasing endorphins and activating the parasympathetic nervous system which naturally puts our body in rest mode.

My own step mom has terrible health with just about everything wrong with her and she has developed Parkinson's. I firmly believe that she has caused much of her bad health due to her thinking which results in behavior and habits (cause and effect). And the one thing she loves to do is to tell everyone within earshot how bad her health is. She thrives on it, because as Eckhart has said, she finds her identity in it. She get attention from it.

But again, there is a line between greatly influencing one's environment and a personal genie in a bottle.


Actually, I'm talking about our physical health from an emotional level, where our beliefs are formed, which is where the cellular structure of our DNA are altered by what we BELIEVE, not just by what we think, which has no affect. Beliefs are the focal points of creation. That's where the key lies. Stress does not come from our thoughts alone. Stress comes from beliefs we hold deep inside of us. Beliefs are emotionally charged thoughts. Thoughts themselves have no bearing on anything in our existence, unless we have the emotional charge behind it and most of us have beliefs stemming from childhood that we are unconscious too, believe it or not. How we process our emotions are how our beliefs are formed and in turn, where are own vibrational state will stem from. But, the emotional charge stems from so many factors including our conditioning that we've taken from childhood. That's where we manifest from......beliefs. It's all vibration. And all things in existence that match our vibration will be drawn to us, whether we are conscious of it or not simply by the beliefs we hold about ourselves deep inside among so many other factors. We enter into this life with a core vibration that is unique for each of us. That vibration is constantly in flux, by the beliefs we take on here in our physical lives.

Again, you're referencing much of the "pop interpretations" of LoA by rehashing on the notion of "personal genie in a bottle" which I don't disagree with you with, but once again, you've created your own beliefs about LoA based on a few people's interpretations instead of exploring the greater perspective on it in terms of vibration on your own.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with what you've written, and I think you make valid points about the over simplification of some of the pop oriented LoA teachings, which talk about gaining material possession from a world apart from you, but what I am trying to point you to is that this is NOT what LoA actually is as on any level, and you are not actually attracting anything apart from you. Even the notion of LoA is a misnomer. Because you're not actually attracting anything, other than merely matching/resonating with vibrations/frequencies that are already always there, that simply match your own state/vibration, which is all based on again..... our own emotional state/beliefs. This is simply how energy works. That's why I was directing you to my other post in the other thread, which you don't have time to read you claim, because it deals with all of the mis understandings of the LoA I feel. It takes 5-10 minutes at most to read that thread. But, you have time to post here in this thread, and to research other links which you've posted above, but you don't have 5-10 minutes to simply read another thread here? Even if you completely disagree with it, it's perfectly fine, just give it a read.

One of the tenets taught in LOA is that it is a law that never stops working. It is always working and what you think about, you bring about whether good or bad. On the micro level, this is to the individual. On the macro level this law works within individuals. What the collective thinks about it brings about. Examples of a collective people praying or thinking of a certain thing to happen are often used as examples of this in LOA teachings.


Tenets based on who? Based on what? Based on YOUR interpretation? This is once again an over simplification of what the LoA actually is. It's not about what you simply "think", again, and has nothing to do with thoughts alone, but about 'beliefs" once again which is an emotional investment in a thought. It's our emotions themselves which are the guiding points of our manifestation and vibration here in the human experience. And yes, it IS always in effect. You are ALWAYS manifesting every second, whether you are conscious of it or not. Manifestation is always happening.

So, the test of this is this: If LOA laws never stop working and what you think about, you bring about on both a micro and macro level, then:

1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it.

2. How about the people in Flint Michigan right now? Has this poisoning of the water resulted in LOA thinking?

3. What about civilians killed in Iraq, was it their thinking that they brought about this?

4. Or the poverty in Africa? Is this simply due to their thinking?


This whole premise is a very limited, line of reasoning. Once again, it's not just thoughts/thinking, it's beliefs. And the LoA ONLY works within a given frame work for the life that you choose to explore as an incarnation. Again you are not attracting material wealth to you, you are simply matching the vibration that you are putting out there by what your own emotional state is based on your beliefs, and if you are stuck in a poverty filled country, in a concentration camp, you're not going to attract a hot model or a corvette. However, you WILL resonate and attract to those vibrations that you are holding within yourself, which match your own within the framework of life you are living. I don't know where you got the idea that LoA overrides any other universal law. The LoA is simply vibration and how vibration works within the frame work of our interconnected energetic experience. It's not "If I think this, it will happen". This is your own interpretation, which is simply mis-perceived.

Again, while thinking can greatly influence one's life and environment, simply writing off events or situations as a result of LOA is a rather superficial, and over simplified POV, and it is rather disrespectful and doesn't achieve any change.


Again, it's not thinking.....it's beliefs. I'm only rehashing this because it's a huge mis understanding.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:34 pm

And Thanks for posting that link Eric. Just read it. I agree with it to a large extent and I think the author makes some very good points, but those same points seem to counter your own positions in this thread.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:44 pm

Whether you believe in channeling or not, this man/alien has some of the most profound understandings of LoA I find.

A VERY short 4 minute video on LoA/manifestation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKbAJbvuvY4
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:48 am

Enlightened: Eric, your entire premise is based on a mis understanding of what LoA actually is. I'm going to point it out below. You're not alone in this belief system and yes, it is your own belief system you've created.

Eric: It is not a misunderstanding. I am well aware that it is about thinking, beliefs, feelings, etc. that the LOA is speaking about, I've read plenty on the subject. As I pointed out with a very basic example that when thinking which can then result to a belief as thinking takes hold about a situation and then causes stress, it then affects one's feelings.

You still have not answered my simple test. If the premise of LOA is that it is always at work and what you think/believe/feel about (is that better?), you will bring about, then are you saying?:

1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it.

2. How about the people in Flint Michigan right now? Has this poisoning of the water resulted in LOA thinking?

3. What about civilians killed in Iraq, was it LOA that they brought about this?

4. Or the poverty in Africa? Is this simply due to LOA?

5. Or the Chinese workers who finally tried to kill themselves, due to the working and living conditions set up by Apple Inc.?
Were these conditions set up merely by LOA? Thankfully, Apple finally set up nets around the living quarters to save those lives :?

6. Little children die of horrible diseases cause they attract it them through LOA?



Abraham Hicks says it does.....well after the dancing around the subject with "LOA platitudes"

https://youtu.be/aupLxCokSZI


It's funny that when Esther's husband Jerry died, how stories began to emerge of Esther's viciousness. They're schtick is a sham and all they have done is rip off the early 1900's authors on "new thinking". But it worked for them, because they made their brand and sold their commodity. Jerry Hicks read Think and Grow Rich and they received material wealth due to selling their merchandise. It doesn't make LOA true, it only demonstrates that you only have to convince a lot of people it is and then sell it to them.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:17 am

I read your post EL and nothing you said is new to me. I understand the taking Quantum Physics and extrapolating the ideas, that there is nothing outside of you because we are energy with taking old eastern thought and marrying it with western ideals, Quantum potential, etc. etc. these are lip services made in the name of LOA, and yet LOA has holes in it, because when you take truths and exaggerate them or twist quantum theories by extrapolating them into new age spiritual ideas, then it is the same old thing just repackaged. I spoke about attracting in practical terms rather than an Absolute POV, because we're having a practical discussion, so my mis-interpretation is not one, because I am not going to do "spiritual" gymnastics and jump back and forth from Absolute and relative, when we are having a relative conversation.

I prefer Cause and effect, because poverty in countries doesn't just arise from a vacuum. It is not simply because a people are vibrating on a lower "poverty" frequency and thus attracting more poverty to them through LOA. That is an over simplistic and rather sophomoric attempt to explain away causes such as cannibalistic cannibalism, the luck of having natural resources in one's geography, social stratification, institutional issues, national exploitation, etc.

It is also easy to speak like this from the comfort of a 1st world country POV, when most of us have all our basic needs met and then some and our "needs" are more more more. More matierialism, more money, more happiness, more health, and even more enlightenment. It doesn't seem to matter what it is, as long as it's more.

Poverty can be from one's values, beliefs, and attitudes, without a doubt, but it is not the only reason.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:23 pm

beginnersmind wrote:1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it.

Of course you or I are not going to be able to answer this with certainty. That said, what do you know of the fears and concerns of the people of the Amazon river? Could they have had concerns of foreigners coming in and disrupting their homelands? Could this fear have spread among them? Could they already have been fearful of the choices their leaders make in lining their own pockets instead of looking out for their peoples interest? Could these fears and concerns focus energy toward some manifestation of those concerns? Can you answer these questions with certainty?

As to the rest of you bullet points, apply this same line of consideration.

There is also the fractal nature of life and being. All experience has value. If a Soul Being wants a particular type of experience to further its own expansion of consciousness and being, could it not choose an area where such challenges are eminent? Could it not contribute in a way to help create those challenges? Could it be such conditions serve a greater purpose that transcends a few decades of human existence whatever the conditions are?

If one lives only in the focused perspective of human life, the greater influences of the non-physical may not be in consideration. If that is the case a broader understanding of LoA may be illusive. But exploring more inclusive possibilities is why we have these discussions, is it not? Certainty of any belief is likely a boat anchor to greater clarity.

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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:18 pm

I think WW answered your question Eric.

I said the same thing in the "Free will" thread that I will say here, granted that's more of a nebulous subject, when it comes to understanding the spirit world and such, yet, I think whether it's free will or the subject of LoA and the questions you ask Eric (which are very reasonable questions as I've considered the same ones myself), such as why people in poor areas "attract" those types of conditions or the other examples you gave, a larger perspective of the non physical, really has to be considered, because other wise, you're attempting to understand these questions within a very limited framework of believing we are either only human beings or only some blotch of consciousness or something like that when energetically there is so much more between the lines that you simply need to open yourself up to.

The consideration of why we choose to explore certain themes pre birth is one. Within that frame of reference, there is much evidence on the choice of geographical locations and demographic considerations when we incarnate, for the sole purposes of exploration of that particular theme. Of course that's not all to it, but it is potentially one factor to consider. But, yet many souls DO choose to incarnate if you ask me into third world countries for the exploration of that experience.

Nanci Danison had a great quote in one of her books along the lines of......if you choose to incarnate into an experience to explore a disability such as being stuck in a wheelchair as a congenital condition for example at birth, you are likely not going to walk for that life. Meaning, the LoA will only work within the given framework for the particular life that you are exploring which is how I see it personally and I could be completely off base of course. Not to mention there are other factors as well such that there are consensus beliefs as well energetically geographically which the LoA once again, will only work within the given frame work of those belief systems, plus other Universal laws and also other people's free will. So, there are so many factors playing into it, but this in no way excludes the simple fact that you, with your own inner state, are still vibrationally attracting and repelling that around you....aka....manifesting. It's just that I would suggest as I see it that it operates differently within the frame work of life you are living. WW mentions the consensus beliefs above such that people in a certain region might have certain fears and collectively these DO manifest of course.

You mention cause and effect and yet, I completely agree with you with cause and effect. However, cause is not a separate event from effect. They are always energetically linked....ALWAYS..... through manifestation on some level. Manifestation IS cause and effect. It's just that cause and effect are not random. Look at your own beliefs and look at your own life. Look at the relationships you form. That's what I've done. I look at the people I attract in my life and see how it relates to my own belief systems. I wonder very often why I attract certain women in my life and try to understand what it is telling me about my own belief systems about myself. I find it always comes back to myself and what I believe about myself. But, it's still LoA. I am attracting vibrationally those people who resonate with the vibration I am putting out there now through my own beliefs conscious or unconscious.

I've read cases of people even going beyond that and unlocking doors with their own thoughts. These are HIGHLY sensitive energetic people and often people who have had NDE's and are greatly in touch with their empath qualities that most of us are very out of touch with. (why is that? because they BELIEVED they could do it). It's our BELIEFS which prevent us from flying and running through walls. No, I don't know this personally of course, because my OWN beliefs about flying are still watered down by the consensus belief system in place that we cannot fly and I don't believe in my heart that I could fly if I tried. But, understand that individually as I see it again, our beliefs will only affect so much in our lives as much as it is collectively agreed upon that we manifest on a much larger scale. That's why escaping from a concentration camp can only go so far with your own individual belief system, as other people's beliefs collectively (which are energy itself) are still overriding anything we individually believe. That's the consensus reality we live in. Yet your own beliefs will still manifest on a much smaller scale.

As far as the rest of your post, my post in the other thread that I referred you to had nothing (intentionally) to do with Quantum physics and the like, because I don't even understand that kind of stuff. I feel like you're just grouping stuff together because of certain "terms" that you deem as new agey. However, what I am studying right now, is not quantum physics, but energy medicine in regards to vibration within the body itself, which is exactly what manifestation/LoA operate together with....meaning vibration IS LoA and energy medicine works with understanding how emotions are processed within the body and how beliefs are formed which in turn.....determines our vibration individually. Check out Bruce Lipton's work with "Biology of Beliefs". I know you'll probably resonate with it anyway, but it just goes to show powerful our own beliefs are when it comes to healing our own bodies alone.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:55 am

Enlightened: I think WW answered your question Eric.

Eric: Actually, I don't think they did. What they did instead was instead offer up possibilities of "well maybes", instead of answering the question directly, that yes, according to LOA laws/teachings the natural disasters, the illnesses, the poverty, exploitation, etc. are a result of these people's thinking/vibrations .

I have offered up 2 examples of teachings of LOA that essentially say that disasters are a result of the collective thinking/vibration. Given that the tenet of LOA is that it never stops working, this would then apply one a micro and macro scale of the examples I provided.

See, it is a bit of a red herring and straw man argument asking what do I know of the people of the Amazon's fears and concerns, because according to LOA laws (and/or many of the teachings presenting LOA), I don't need to know. According to LOA teachings, the result of Exxon Mobil coming in and poisoning the river is a result of the collective people's thinking/vibration that attracted this to them. Nevermind the fact that the United States has a track record for exploiting poorer countries for their natural resources. Nevermind Exxon's complete disregard for the area since it is not in their own backyard, and attempted to keep overhead low and profits high by using poor infrastructure, which are both real practical causes producing real practical events.

And whoever said that cause and effect are separate? How could they be? This is a straw man argument, because I never said nor implied this. By definition cause and effect CANNOT be separate for there can be no cause without its effect, and there can be no effect without a cause. But again you have extrapolated cause and effect to the point where people are attracting natural disasters to them and oversimplifying cause and effect to merely "vibrational attraction", and thus removing other causes through this overgeneralized implication.

Has it occurred to you that the result of the poisoning of the Amazon was simply due to greed and cannibalistic capitalism where a company took advantage of another country with promises of "new infrastructure" and exploited the countries natural resources? And with little or no regard to the indigenous people of the area because they know those people don't really have a voice?

Do you really think that Saudi Arabia has so much wealth simply because they vibrationally attracted it to them, or is it simply because they were lucky enough to live on a geography that had a natural resource that happened to be the most sought after commodity on earth?

I practice Qigong, so I am aware of energy healing, and have read on Pranic Energy Healing, but I'm not going to extrapolate this into something it is not. I've read Bruce Lipton's book years ago, about the same time I read a lot of LOA books. And I've read the NDE's books like "Dying to Be Me" and "Proof of Heaven". My advice, don't just believe everything you read simply because you want it to be true.

I'm pretty much done with this conversation. I've said what I wanted to and that is while there are truths to LOA, as we can see with examples you have given such as attracting the same kind of relationships due to a mindset, these truths have often been extrapolated to becoming fairy tales and the ones who are benefiting most are the ones selling it.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Mystic » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:00 pm

I have never bought any books about the law of attraction - they cannot attract my money :lol: But I do like "The Power of Now" and "Stillness Speaks". I have experimented with the power of the mind, and yes, the mind can manifest forms in this world of experience. I only experimented with little things like healing my pickup truck and healing my back. It does work. I have not tried to move mountains or become a rich billionaire because an intuitive voice tells me that I would become "lost in the form" if I did that. Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven(enlightenment). He also told the parable of the prodigal son, where the lost son squandered his inheritance, finally got tired of the world of form, and returned home.

Satan(the ego) told Jesus he could have the all the kingdoms of the world if he would listen to the ego. Jesus said no.

Perhaps we can change the world by changing on an individual basis by small acts of kindness and helping other people, not through having lots of money and riches. The true value is not in the forms of things.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:02 pm

Eric, I would suggest to throw all of the teachings you know about the LoA and just use your own experience. Keep it simple.That's what I've done with LoA. I've used my own experience with my own health and with my relationships first and fore most, which in turn....MADE me want to research the teachings a bit more because of the bizarre synchronicities that were happening (and still are) in my life. I would suggest the opposite that you are possibly over complicating the LoA because of still, what you believe it to be and therefore preventing yourself from seeing it in action.

But again you have extrapolated cause and effect to the point where people are attracting natural disasters to them and oversimplifying cause and effect to merely "vibrational attraction", and thus removing other causes through this overgeneralized implication.


Hmmm....not entirely.There are just SO many other factors which I mentioned in the other post as well and will mention below. And no, I'm not simplifying it. I'm explaining what LoA actually IS compared to what you believe it to be.

If you understood the gist of my post as well, you'd understand that what I was saying is the LoA IS always working. But outside forces (other universal laws, other people's free will and largely consensus belief systems), which I absolutely mentioned clearly above and you can go back to my post to see that, always play a role in it. Meaning, the LoA WILL still work, but within the constructs of the stuff I mentioned above. Free will overrides anything in existence. Meaning other people's free will in large areas collectively, will still override your own individual beliefs. Yet, that aside:

Has it occurred to you that the result of the poisoning of the Amazon was simply due to greed and cannibalistic capitalism where a company took advantage of another country with promises of "new infrastructure" and exploited the countries natural resources? And with little or no regard to the indigenous people of the area because they know those people don't really have a voice?


Has it possibly occurred to YOU that the people in the Amazon region, have their own consensus belief systems which vibrate outwards which have also contributed to the outside forces that came upon them? I'm just asking if you've even considered this. Not saying it is or isn't, because the truth of the matter is, that I absolutely do not know myself, but you and I cannot have this discussion, without a more inclusive perspective at play in understanding how energy flows, as you are ultimately disregarding how incredibly powerful belief structures truly are in their own manifestation. Are you aware of how powerful energetic grid lines are in certain geographical regions? Why do you think that is? Do you think this just happens accidentally without belief structures playing a role in this that are passed down? How about weather patterns? Do you think these too have no energetic constructs behind it, also not based in belief structures? Compared to some of the narrow minded, limited global warming debates that gets thrown around, when people are just too blind to understand how beliefs structures themselves are playing an even greater role in the weather patterns, rather than global warming itself as a physical construct? There is ultimately nothing in our existence that does not stem from belief structures. But, these are belief structures that are passed down from generation to generation and incorporate MASS areas geographically and demographically and therefore incorporate what we call consensus realities. I learned a lot about this from reading William Buhlman's work. It's so fascinating beyond words.

One man who fears getting shot so greatly, has a belief so strongly that he will get shot and in turn, that he traps himself in his own home.......eventually ends up getting shot by a robber who breaks into his house. It's just not a focus of attention on getting shot. It's an actual BELIEF. Of course the robber's own past history has caused him to create his own set of actions based on his own set of experiences, but do you really believe for a second that that the victim's own fear based mentality did not play role in this as well vibrationally? That's cause and effect. That's truly seeing the energetic flow of action to action. It's all energetically linked by the vibrations we are putting out to each other. Of course, the robber might have chosen a different house that day or perhaps had massive diarrhea that morning and never made it to the victim's house. As I said above, so many other factors will play a role. But, one way or another, the victim would have drawn something into his life that will reinforce that belief, simply because his own beliefs energetically HAVE to manifest a vibration resonance. Otherwise, energy could not flow.

I practice Qigong, so I am aware of energy healing, and have read on Pranic Energy Healing, but I'm not going to extrapolate this into something it is not. I've read Bruce Lipton's book years ago, about the same time I read a lot of LOA books. And I've read the NDE's books like "Dying to Be Me" and "Proof of Heaven". My advice, don't just believe everything you read simply because you want it to be true.


And this pretty much proves my point right here. The parts in bold.

Thanks for the convo Eric. I respect your decision to step out and with all of this said, I find you highly intelligent and I do think you bring great insight.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:59 pm

beginnersmind wrote:See, it is a bit of a red herring and straw man argument asking what do I know of the people of the Amazon's fears and concerns

First lets be clear on what a straw man argument is.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.

Then there is the red herring.

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.

The issue is LoA and how it could attract problems to groups and individuals. I gave relevant and common examples of how such attraction could occur in a group of people that you pointed to as not seeing how LoA could be a factor. What you are doing is avoidance of possible answers to your own questions rather than fairly considering the possibilities. Thus you hide behind claims of my answer being a straw man and a red herring.

Neither of us know exactly what another is thinking or believing, or what concerns they hold and with what emotion, let alone all the way to the Amazon. But we do know that thought and emotion hold energy and vibration. Were people in the are warned this could happen by those that saw it elsewhere? It's common for environmental groups to actively spread such concerns. Did that concern grow in their minds? While we don't know for certain, it remains a possibility.

I also think it is reasonable to assume that Exxon or whoever didn't just show up one day and poison the water. There was a long process that attracted the attention and involved many of the local population and authorities. It's hard to deny the real possibility of some scenario like this playing out. And simply to dismiss them with claims of false arguments that don't apply is avoidance on your own part. It is a clear fact that you don't know specifically what their fears and concerns were, and their fears and concerns is a strong driver of LoA.

Never mind the fact that the United States has a track record for exploiting poorer countries for their natural resources. Never mind Exxon's complete disregard for the area since it is not in their own backyard

Is this the only track record of the US or of Oil companies? The United States or an oil company is not an entity that makes decisions. People do that. To isolate only the negative examples ignores all the good people from the US and even oil companies have done in the world. Where is the balance? Sure, there are significant issues to consider but that's another conversation. This is about LoA.

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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:44 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
beginnersmind wrote:See, it is a bit of a red herring and straw man argument asking what do I know of the people of the Amazon's fears and concerns

First lets be clear on what a straw man argument is.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.

Then there is the red herring.

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.

The issue is LoA and how it could attract problems to groups and individuals. I gave relevant and common examples of how such attraction could occur in a group of people that you pointed to as not seeing how LoA could be a factor. What you are doing is avoidance of possible answers to your own questions rather than fairly considering the possibilities. Thus you hide behind claims of my answer being a straw man and a red herring.

Neither of us know exactly what another is thinking or believing, or what concerns they hold and with what emotion, let alone all the way to the Amazon. But we do know that thought and emotion hold energy and vibration. Were people in the are warned this could happen by those that saw it elsewhere? It's common for environmental groups to actively spread such concerns. Did that concern grow in their minds? While we don't know for certain, it remains a possibility.


WW


I don't hide behind claims. I stand by my statement. You veered off into speculative "well maybe" scenarios instead of directly answering 5 simple questions. And again you're doing it.

If the premise of LOA is that it is a law that is always at work and you attract "things" to you whether you want it or not; whether consciously or unconsciously, then on that very premise, the results stem from the emotions/energy/vibration.

Instead of veering off into, (and I'll use your words) and hiding behind "well we don't know", why not answer the simple questions? On the premise of "LOA law", are these merely a result of LOA and these people attracted this to them either on an individual or collective level?

1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it.

2. How about the people in Flint Michigan right now? Has this poisoning of the water resulted in LOA thinking?

3. What about civilians killed in Iraq, was it LOA that they brought about this?

4. Or the poverty in Africa? Is this simply due to LOA?

5. Or the Chinese workers who finally tried to kill themselves, due to the working and living conditions set up by Apple Inc.?
Were these conditions set up merely by LOA? Thankfully, Apple finally set up nets around the living quarters to save those lives :?

6. Little children die of horrible diseases cause they attract it them through LOA?

Webwanderer wrote:
I also think it is reasonable to assume that Exxon or whoever didn't just show up one day and poison the water. There was a long process that attracted the attention and involved many of the local population and authorities. It's hard to deny the real possibility of some scenario like this playing out. And simply to dismiss them with claims of false arguments that don't apply is avoidance on your own part. It is a clear fact that you don't know specifically what their fears and concerns were, and their fears and concerns is a strong driver of LoA.

WW
[/quote]

Whoever said that Exxon just showed up one day and what does that have to do with the context of the conversation if this is a result of LOA or not? And again you're veering off here. Why not just answer the question. I'll even re paste it here.

1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it?

Eric: And please explain to me my false argument and my avoidance. Avoidance of what? You're the one not directly answering my questions. Is my above question a false argument, because what I have stated has been documented and has been taken to court.

Webwanderer wrote:
beginnersmind wrote:
Never mind the fact that the United States has a track record for exploiting poorer countries for their natural resources. Never mind Exxon's complete disregard for the area since it is not in their own backyard


Is this the only track record of the US or of Oil companies? The United States or an oil company is not an entity that makes decisions. People do that. To isolate only the negative examples ignores all the good people from the US and even oil companies have done in the world. Where is the balance? Sure, there are significant issues to consider but that's another conversation. This is about LoA.

WW


Eric: Wow. Yes, this is about LOA. THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT! No one said that it was the only track record, but that both have a track record. Instead of simply answering the questions, you veer off into a plea for balance, "coming to the defense" of the United States and the Oil Companies. Yeah, that is for another conversation, not this one.

My using the negative examples is within context of this specific conversation and to make a specific point about LOA! That is the whole point of using these examples. It's that simple. It has nothing to do whether the U.S. also does good or not. That is not the context of this specific conversation.

And the United States and oil companies aren't entities that make decisions, it's people that do that? Wow, thanks for clarifying that for me, I would have never known. :?

Again, I do not disagree that the mind is very powerful and can greatly influence one's life, health, and environment, but to extrapolate these truths into Hay House fantasies, I call BS.
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Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites

Postby beginnersmind » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:09 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:
And this pretty much proves my point right here. The parts in bold.

Thanks for the convo Eric. I respect your decision to step out and with all of this said, I find you highly intelligent and I do think you bring great insight.


Thank you Enlightened. As I mentioned before, I do think the mind is powerful and greatly influences our lives, health, environment, etc. At the same time, I think discernment is needed on some of these claims and the danger lies in extrapolating truths into magic.

We are all interconnected and interdependent in my opinion. No man is an island, in other words. What we do affects our world, our surroundings, others. When teachers attempt to explain away disasters, tragedies, illnesses, exploitation, poverty, as merely due to their vibrations, I think it is over simplistic and rather irresponsible. It's also especially easy to say when one usually makes these claims from the comfort of having all basic needs met and then some.

Since we are all interconnected and interdependent, we (myself included of course) really need to start looking at how we affect our world, environment, and others. Yes, we need to look within, but that doesn't mean ignoring the without, for the world is but a reflection of our collective inward condition. As J. Krishnamurti said, "to have a revolution of the world, we must have a revolution of mind."

And really brutally honestly looking both within and seeing the results without is probably one of the hardest things for humans to do, which is why we as a people look to distractions so much. Isn't it interesting that the people who generally make the most money in the world are the ones who give people the biggest distractions from it? I think this is because we as a people will pay top dollar to not have to look. We may give it a different name and call it entertainment, but IMO it is merely our desperate need as a people to distract ourselves from what we do not want to look at.
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