Is suicide really a "no" ?

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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby dijmart » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:23 am

Here, I will depersonalize my last post-

So, "what if" the life one's leading that's causes them so much suffering was their karma from a past life?

Not that they are the "same" person (that would take to much explanation from the Vedanta view to begin to explain here). But, let's just say, it is "their" karma to work out here in this life?

If they were to end their life prematurely, it would be safe to say, from that point of view, that their "unresolved" karma, then "new" karma from a suicide would roll into one big, nasty, negative karmic account. Could they even imagine the suffering then in the next life?

Still working from this perspective, what if their life now IS working out karma from a past suicide, that they will relive..over and over..until they make different choices...the choice to live, over come the suffering and not die at their own hands?


BOOM, it's no longer about you!
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby painBody » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:55 am

Dij, I hope that what I have to say in response to your post about karma does not offend you. Because, my honesty is the point here, not my apparent attempt to invalidate anything you had to say.

Now, past the disclaimer, all that stuff about "karma", "reincarnation", "spiritual guides", "levels", etc, according to me, is, at best, to put it very nicely, a stew of pseudo-meta-science (I HATE to use the word "Science" because I have a background in Science and I LOVE Science) full of words that are intended to make people sound "intelligent" (but do the exact opposite). To be a bit more blunt, it is a pile of feces gift wrapped for mass consumption, produced by people who have nothing better to do with their time, or could not find a more legitimate career or hobby, and saw a quick/easy way to make millions off of innocents who couldn't see with their own eyes.

In other words, spirituality CANNOT be as complex as the above mentioned pseudo-meta-crap that is sold to people. It MUST be FAR simpler than the Math and Science we learned as kids in school. It MUST be FAR simpler than interpersonal (human) relationships. If you ask me for proof, I won't have any, because this is something I know to be true in my bones. It is the best proof I can think of, yet, it is proof I cannot share with anyone else, for that same reason.

The short response to your post is that I don't believe in "karma" or "reincarnations" or "carried over karma debt". I see the formless dimension as being FAR simpler. And, it is that very simplicity that makes it so special and sacred.
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby dijmart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:08 am

In Vedanta, karma, reincarnation, etc is only valid so long as one is "identified" as the apparent person they appear to be. If there is psychological suffering, there is identification.
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby painBody » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:44 am

dijmart wrote:In Vedanta, karma, reincarnation, etc is only valid so long as one is "identified" as the apparent person they appear to be. If there is psychological suffering, there is identification.


That's my point, exactly. And I'm saying it's never valid, suffering or not.

This is exactly why ET's teachings appeal to me so much. Because he agrees that the formless dimension is too simple for the mind to comprehend. If it gets any more complex, it cannot be real (it's "mind stuff").
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby dijmart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:04 am

painBody wrote:
dijmart wrote:In Vedanta, karma, reincarnation, etc is only valid so long as one is "identified" as the apparent person they appear to be. If there is psychological suffering, there is identification.


That's my point, exactly. And I'm saying it's never valid, suffering or not.

This is exactly why ET's teachings appeal to me so much. Because he agrees that the formless dimension is too simple for the mind to comprehend. If it gets any more complex, it cannot be real (it's "mind stuff").


I know you are saying it's never valid, but I'm disagreeing with you, it IS valid so long as one considers themself an individual, volitional entity. ET has a video where he answers a question about what happens after death. He states (I'm doing from memory) as long as one is identified with form(s) they will continue to identify with form.

Here's the video, I don't have time right now to re-watch it.

https://youtu.be/BEUxg2GEivU
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby dijmart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:26 am

Here ET also refers to karma, wheel of karma and past lives (reincarnation).

https://youtu.be/EAiuzdt67Jo
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby dijmart » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:28 am

Eckhart Tolle-

https://youtu.be/1Ja75T5wF1U

Title:
"There's a strong pattern in me that doesn't want to live anymore"
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby Rubber Soul » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:29 am

I don't know, but Dr. Raymond Moody said all the suicide near-death experiencers he interviewed had the same NDEs as non-suicides. Also, those who attempted suicide and experienced an NDE never attempted again, while suicide attempts that don't experience NDEs usually do attempt again.
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby dijmart » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:59 pm

I don't know, but Dr. Raymond Moody said all the suicide near-death experiencers he interviewed had the same NDEs as non-suicides.


Can you reference where he has said this?
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby painBody » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:53 am

dijmart wrote:Eckhart Tolle-

https://youtu.be/1Ja75T5wF1U

Title:
"There's a strong pattern in me that doesn't want to live anymore"


Danke, dij ! That was a great video.
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby painBody » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:54 am

Rubber Soul wrote:I don't know, but Dr. Raymond Moody said all the suicide near-death experiencers he interviewed had the same NDEs as non-suicides. Also, those who attempted suicide and experienced an NDE never attempted again, while suicide attempts that don't experience NDEs usually do attempt again.


Interesante.
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby Rubber Soul » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:09 am

dijmart wrote:
I don't know, but Dr. Raymond Moody said all the suicide near-death experiencers he interviewed had the same NDEs as non-suicides.


Can you reference where he has said this?


I think it's this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6enlQkcgiw

Sorry for the late reply
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby dijmart » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:28 pm

Rubber Soul wrote:
dijmart wrote:
I don't know, but Dr. Raymond Moody said all the suicide near-death experiencers he interviewed had the same NDEs as non-suicides.


Can you reference where he has said this?


I think it's this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6enlQkcgiw

Sorry for the late reply


Yes, he did say that, I'm just confused by that because I had heard (who knows where) that there's usually a sense of regret. Anyways, I do agree with him that suicidal people are not being rational, therefore it's very hard to convince them not to do it. Also, he says, why would they fear a "hell" when for them they're already in hell.
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby painBody » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:28 pm

dijmart wrote:Anyways, I do agree with him that suicidal people are not being rational


Wanting an end to unbearable pain is not rational ? If that isn't rational, what is ?

I'd love to ask this "doctor" what, if any, personal experience he has with suicide. And, I don't mean interviewing other suicidal people and writing a book claiming to be an "expert" ... I mean personal experience. My guess is ... not the tiniest tad. Like ET says, you can have a PhD. in honey without actually tasting it :)

If he does have any personal experience with it, that is not at all reflected in the statement he made (and you quoted). Perhaps the lure of the dollar bill is too much to pass up, for having to lie and make up a story .. pro-suicide authors don't live in mansions, do they ? It's laughably easy to claim fame piggybacking on a viewpoint that is already overwhelmingly popular. Try challenging a popular viewpoint ... until then, don't count on winning over my curiosity. ... BTW, I'm saying this to the "doctor", not to you, dij :)
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Re: Is suicide really a "no" ?

Postby dijmart » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:10 am

Wanting an end to unbearable pain is not rational ? If that isn't rational, what is ?


Perhaps I should've said, "I" wasn't being rational. Of course, this was only seen after the fact and with professional help.
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