Reality?

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din
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Post by din » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:50 am

Hey Phil,
If it's silence we want, a simple meditation practise can deliver it. A fact worth considering?

Somebody showed us how to watch our breathing patiently until our thoughts slow, and maybe sometimes stop. We've been to that place once, and thus know how to get there again.

So, what else is needed?
What is needed, more than silence, is to be still.

And this NOT something you can do, it's not something you can find, it's not something that you can deserve or work towards.

When stillness arises, then it arises.

There are no reasons for it, no precedents, nothing that we can say about it.

Also involved in stillness, is a stepping back from experiences and perceptions, almost as if you are just watching the body-mind complex.

If we sweep aside all the elaborate teachings, and years of endlessly analyzing concepts, we immediately come face to face with a simple moment centered decision.

Be silent, or do something else?
In stillness, the illusion of choice dissolves.

And whether the body-mind is active or not is irrelevant.

If it were relevant, I would still be drawn to meditation, to silence.

The only thing I am drawn to is the present moment.
:)

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Post by Blenderhead » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:22 pm

Yes, stillness arises sometimes in me, when I'm not looking for peace. If I'm looking for it, it usually makes things worse :(

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Post by phil » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:16 pm

Hi again Din, thanks for joining in again. We're a good team it seems. I appreciate the inspiration you provide for my writing, and hope I can do the same for you.
din wrote:What is needed, more than silence, is to be still.

And this NOT something you can do, it's not something you can find, it's not something that you can deserve or work towards.
I accept your report of your own situation, but this just isn't my experience.

My life has been pretty routine for the last 12 years. I'm either on the computer coding and blowharding, or I'm in nature letting it go, and sinking in to silence. If the weather stinks, I may do sitting meditation around the house.

My experience is that I have control over whether I spend a day on the Net shifting my brain in to high gear, or spend the day in some portal or another, downshifting my brain towards silence. It's completely my decision.

My experience is that the more sitting or nature meditation I do, the quieter I get. On any given day my silence level is determined by 1) how bad do I want it, and 2) how much time do I invest in my portals.

The appeal of this approach for me is that:

1) the problem is simple, if I don't have peace, it's because I'm not choosing it.

2) the solution is simple, there is nothing complicated to learn or understand, thus,

3) anybody could do it.

I fully agree this is not the ultimate permanent solution to all problems that some seek, it is only a solution now.

Nor is it the exact right plan for everybody. To each their own of course.
When stillness arises, then it arises.
If this is the case, why spend half the day fooling around on a Tolle board? What's the point of any of our reading or posts here if we have no control?

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summer
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Post by summer » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:21 pm

I was listening to Eckhart's India Retreat series yesterday, and he was speaking about this question of whether we have choice or not. So here is another viewpoint.

Presence is arising in all of us. He was saying that when enough presence has arisen then we have a choice whether to pay attention to all of the forms, or whether to be still.

He was then speaking about the paradox of saying that we have a choice, and at the same time saying we don't have choice.

While it appears that our form is making the choice to be still. It is more true to say that presence is making the choice. That if enough presence hadn't already arisen in us, we wouldn't be able to make that choice yet.

Semantics? Maybe :)

But since I so recently heard Eckhart speaking about this, I thought that I would toss it into the soup pot here.

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Post by yougarksooo » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:41 pm

My experience is that I have control over whether I spend a day on the Net shifting my brain in to high gear, or spend the day in some portal or another, downshifting my brain towards silence. It's completely my decision.
For me, it is not one or the other. All of life is being infused with presence, or stillness. Everything in life becomes a portal or spiritual practice, so to speak. This is what Tolle is really talking about in a New Earth, in my view.

Behind the "shifting of the brain" lies that stillness or awareness. The brain then does not operate as that incessant stream of neverending thought. It quiets, in varying degrees depending on how much thought is required. In moments of pure meditation, the mind quiets almost entirely. But even doing tasks, the action is taken but much of the unnecessary mental movement that I used to live with is gone. Life is sweeter, more peaceful, even those moments where thought is required. Inner body awareness is a wonderful tool for bringing in that state.

We were just talking about this in the procrastination thread, which is a good example. I used to spend a lot of time thinking about what I was supposed to do or what "needed" to happen in the future. I've cut out most of that thought. Now, as best as I can, I either do or don't do. There is no problem. Look Phil, I didn't put quotes around the word problem. :)
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

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Post by phil » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:00 pm

Hi Summer,
summer wrote:While it appears that our form is making the choice to be still. It is more true to say that presence is making the choice.
Philosophically, it's an interesting question, agreed. Are we living life, or is it living us?

Practically speaking, it seems less than helpful to state that somebody other than the individual is making the choice.

We experience ourselves as separate individuals, whether it is ultimately true or not. And some of us arrived at Tolle and this forum in pain. The pain is some form of victim experience.

And then somebody tells me "You can't choose peace, peace will choose you."

My victim experience is reinforced and fed. "Oh woe is me, peace and stillness didn't choose me, I've been left behind again, waaaa etc. "

Isn't the victim experience defined by the notion that life is living me, and treating me badly? Isn't this the story that keeps people in pain for years?

Once one has a portal or two, isn't this victim story a bit like standing in front of a refrigerator, wailing about how hungry we are?

Isn't it kinder to just leave all the fancy stuff out of it, and gently remind the victim they can open the refrigerator door when ever they wish?

We as victims already know this to be true, which is why we get so mad when somebody interupts our victim story with this reminder.

Hi Yo, I'm glad we're no longer having a "problem"! :-)

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Post by eseward » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:06 pm

Amazing but true: I really liked that post, Phil. I agree with you on that. I also noticed an unusual lack of "Phil spin". Remarkable what's possible in life, eh? :)

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din
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Post by din » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:26 pm

Hey Phil,
Philosophically, it's an interesting question, agreed. Are we living life, or is it living us?
Once you have this insight/experience that life is living you rather than you living life.

Then all questions fall away.

This is not something you can get.

Because you're getting it means a falling away of you the experiencer.
:)

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Post by phil » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:14 pm

eseward wrote:Amazing but true: I really liked that post, Phil. I agree with you on that.
Well, Ok, cool, thanks. If you wish, notice how this approach is dependant on the solution being simple.

It's the simplicity of the solution that forces us to see, "I either open the refrigerator door, or I don't."

If the solution is esoteric or complicated, then I can stand in front of the refrigerator for decades claiming, "I can't get it, I can't get it, I must be stupid, why are things like this always happening to me, etc"
eseward wrote:I also noticed an unusual lack of "Phil spin". :)
Yes, I know. We agree, therefore I'm not spinning.

Oops! That didn't last long. :-)

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Post by phil » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:29 pm

din wrote:This is not something you can get.

Because you're getting it means a falling away of you the experiencer.
You know, I do agree Din. When I'm in nature I observe that it is my desire to merge with nature that becomes the obstacle to a deeper merger.

How did you arrive at the place of being able to see that Din?

How did you get it?

Wasn't there a teaching process of some kind involved that you voluntarily entered?

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Post by Webwanderer » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:14 am

Phil Wrote:
If you wish, notice how this approach is dependant on the solution being simple.

It's the simplicity of the solution that forces us to see, "I either open the refrigerator door, or I don't."
Phil also wrote:
How did you arrive at the place of being able to see that Din?

How did you get it?

Wasn't there a teaching process of some kind involved that you voluntarily entered?
These two quotes seem to be contradictory. One is a direct approach the other requires study and instruction. Seems a little out of step for your previous rantings. Please clarify.

Note: I also agree with eseward. Your post was much more pleasant and clear. I'm sure it won't last. :)

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Post by phil » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:34 am

Webwanderer wrote:These two quotes seem to be contradictory. One is a direct approach the other requires study and instruction. Seems a little out of step for your previous rantings. Please clarify.
Sorry for any muddle. Din was saying "This is not something you can get". Was trying to agree, but also see another angle, in that Din does "get it" and he did take a voluntary action to get there. More semantic dancing I suppose.
Webwanderer wrote:Note: I also agree with eseward. Your post was much more pleasant and clear. I'm sure it won't last. :)
Ok, it's official, including me the temporary fan club is up to 3! :-)

For the record, I agree, lots of my posts are full of various flavors of egoic rantings and ravings. Some of these are fun, some are less fun, depending on the reader and which ox is being gored.

You know, we could train a parrot to speak any of the words here, and the words spoken would still be just as useful or not useful. I'm not trying to impersonate Tolle here, I'm trying to be as honest with you as I can, and that means showing you more of the real me than you may wish I'd shared. :-)

The speaker has no authority, as Krishnamurti would say, and this speaker is not a role model for anybody.

Unless of course your goal is to be rat infested, code crazed, manic typoholic. In that case, you should definitely join my ashram!

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din
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Post by din » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:25 am

phil wrote:
din wrote:This is not something you can get.

Because you're getting it means a falling away of you the experiencer.
You know, I do agree Din. When I'm in nature I observe that it is my desire to merge with nature that becomes the obstacle to a deeper merger.

How did you arrive at the place of being able to see that Din?

How did you get it?

Wasn't there a teaching process of some kind involved that you voluntarily entered?
Honestly, I really don't know.
:)

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Post by summer » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:24 am

For me, reading The Power of Now helped a lot in understanding that the future would never give me what I was seeking.

But listening to many of Tolle's tapes helped me experience the present moment and know that this is it. Although I had experienced being present many times before, I had never realised before that this was what I thought that I was seeking.

This moment. It is all here right now. Always and forever.

That is so nice to know. :)

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Post by AnEternalNow » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:34 am

phil wrote:
din wrote:This is not something you can get.

Because you're getting it means a falling away of you the experiencer.
You know, I do agree Din. When I'm in nature I observe that it is my desire to merge with nature that becomes the obstacle to a deeper merger.

How did you arrive at the place of being able to see that Din?

How did you get it?

Wasn't there a teaching process of some kind involved that you voluntarily entered?
Our existence has ALWAYS been non dual. There is NEVER a moment that one is out of non-duality.

It is just that when thoughts are grasped... a 'self' is experienced... creating the perception of observer and the being observered.

There is really no entering into non-duality or getting out of it. Every moment is non-dual... but less grasping makes it more obvious...


No self is not a state of no ego and is not a state that is attainable. There is no attaining to non-duality... It is only the 'sense of self' that created the impression of duality. Even when the 'sense of self' is there, existence is still non-dual. We never live out of non-duality.

No-Self or Non-Duality is the TRUTH or REALITY that there never was subject and object, only a thought impression. In Buddhism, we call that a Dharma Seal, a characteristic of existence.

The the illusion of duality is shattered, merger doesn't make sense anymore. You can't become one. All there is is One Reality, always.

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