Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby DavidB » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:30 pm

I'm just saying that watching the mind is not as effortless and peaceful as Eckhart makes it out to be ... in my experience.


Yes, you are correct. Watching the mind can be difficult, especially in a problematic life situation. Especially when we are in a situation that demands our complete attention, which might also stir up an overwhelming surge of emotion.

Suggesting that being present will always be a state of complete blissful stillness is not achievable nor realistic. Sometimes there will be storms, and sometimes those storms will be overwhelming. But those storms can reveal a great deal about what remains unconscious within us, which is why the pain body can become a valuable asset in our transcendence.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby painBody » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:49 pm

rachMiel wrote:
painBody wrote:Without living it, none of what Eckhart teaches is of any value whatsoever ... in fact, without applying it, listening to him is a total waste of time ...

Maybe listening to teachings plants seeds that can, when the time is right, sprout and mature into living the teachings?


Hmm, I personally don't think it works that way. Like ET himself says, "Either you're ready for it or not". In other words, either you've suffered enough and you're going to welcome it with open arms, in which case, you'd want to apply the teachings ... or you're just going to reject the teachings totally. There's no intermediate stage (in my opinion) wherein seeds are planted for later.

Alternatively, sometimes, the "theory" or the belief (without its application) can actually become an obstacle because a person may become complacent - "I know the truth" and may think he/she has awakened, when, in fact, they've just found a new belief to attach themselves to, without actually realizing the "truth" experientially.

Yes, listening to his audiotapes, in and of itself, is therapeutic. I used to listen to ET in the shower and it was a very effective meditation ritual. But, I think, like with anything else, the real value in any belief or idea lies in its application/realization.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby painBody » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:56 pm

DavidB wrote:
I'm just saying that watching the mind is not as effortless and peaceful as Eckhart makes it out to be ... in my experience.


Yes, you are correct. Watching the mind can be difficult, especially in a problematic life situation. Especially when we are in a situation that demands our complete attention, which might also stir up an overwhelming surge of emotion.

Suggesting that being present will always be a state of complete blissful stillness is not achievable nor realistic. Sometimes there will be storms, and sometimes those storms will be overwhelming. But those storms can reveal a great deal about what remains unconscious within us, which is why the pain body can become a valuable asset in our transcendence.


Right, exactly. It's not always going to be like that. I think that, for most people, presence will materialize as small gaps in their daily lives, where there were no gaps before. The gaps may widen over time, or not.

I sometimes get the feeling that "spiritual" people are aiming for something that, as you said, is not very realistic - an eternal state of bliss. As long as we are stuck in form, there will be chaos and upheavals, but hopefully punctuated by those tiny gaps of presence.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:00 pm

painBody wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Maybe listening to teachings plants seeds that can, when the time is right, sprout and mature into living the teachings?

Hmm, I actually don't think it works that way. Like ET himself says, "Either you're ready for it or not". In other words, either you've suffered enough and you're going to welcome it with open arms, in which case, you'd want to apply the teachings ... or you're just going to reject the teachings totally. There's no intermediate stage (in my opinion) wherein seeds are planted for later.

So you're not a fan of karma? I am ... in a "what you sow, so shall you reap" kinda way. Hence seeds that (might) eventually sprout and flower.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:17 pm

rachMiel wrote:So you're not a fan of karma? I am ... in a "what you sow, so shall you reap" kinda way. Hence seeds that (might) eventually sprout and flower.

Do you think there a difference between karma and LoA?
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby rachMiel » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:08 am

WW, hi. :-)

I know little about the LoA, so I did some research and found this (at http://www.leveragingthought.com/2014/0 ... ttraction/):

"To put it simply, the biggest difference between what we know about how energy actually operates through the Law of Attraction and the classical definition of karma is this: your current point of attraction is a direct result of your energy frequency in THIS moment. It has nothing to do with a past life or past good or bad deeds in this life."

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the article, but I found it instructive. It goes on to say that:

"If you can shift your frequency ... then you can shift into a difference circumstance immediately, despite what your frequency (reality) has been in the past."

So you can nullify the energy of karma, no matter how far back it goes, in an instant with the LoA.

Does this sound right to you?

P.S. Did some more thinking about this and realized that, per Buddhism, karma ceases upon enlightenment. Which is similar to what the author of this article says: Shift your frequency and you nullify karma. The author also says that, like enlightenment, shifting the frequency ain't easy:

"If you can shift your frequency (and this is a big if, since quantum shifts in frequency are difficult to achieve and even more difficult to sustain) ..."

So, I guess I'd say: the LoA and karma are quite to very similar.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:49 pm

rachMiel wrote:So you can nullify the energy of karma, no matter how far back it goes, in an instant with the LoA.

Does this sound right to you?

Pretty close. The way I see it is that the perception of karma is a mental construct that somewhat misrepresents the underlying fundamentals of LoA. There's a bit too much carrot and stick in 'karma', and not enough science of being as is the basis for LoA. Other than that they are essentially a reference to the same energetic frame work of creation.

It's somewhat like other religions teaching of heaven and hell based on one's actions. Such teachings do more to serve the Church and control others than it does to serve the congregation with actionable information.

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:30 pm

DavidB wrote:Yes, you are correct. Watching the mind can be difficult, especially in a problematic life situation. Especially when we are in a situation that demands our complete attention, which might also stir up an overwhelming surge of emotion.

Suggesting that being present will always be a state of complete blissful stillness is not achievable nor realistic. Sometimes there will be storms, and sometimes those storms will be overwhelming. But those storms can reveal a great deal about what remains unconscious within us, which is why the pain body can become a valuable asset in our transcendence.


Yes, I very much agree with this.

PainBody, I totally understand your inquiry. When I had this incredibly profound awakening, it was intensely liberating and blissful for months. But, old stuff started to surface for me (this is what I was referencing in another post which you responded to I believe). I hate to use the word 'work', because of its upstream qualities, but it does take focus of attention to see what is going on in the mind.

The way I see it, both sides of the spectrum I don't resonate with. The neo-advaitas are often living in completely suppression and denial of all of their own fear. While the other end is the LoA communities (and the LoA is very real) where many people are just trying to manifest one goal after another, after another, after another, which becomes another form of trying to escape what's in their own heart right here and now, because of the disconnection with their own heart.

Instead, I strongly believe (as WW so eloquently put) that there is a divine purpose to our lives which takes all of this into account including the LoA. Yet, if you consider that you are creating your own reality experience with your beliefs (the outside a mirror for the inside), then really, if you let your thoughts go on flow mode/automatic, you will simply be creating with the conditioned collective ego. It absolutely does take focus to be aware of your thoughts and making it a priority (if you choose) to be aware of your own inner state of being before anything else. When you do this, old stuff will naturally start to manifest and you get triggered, because the Universe (in my personal opinion) is always geared towards 'bringing us home'. In other words, the more you are unaware of your own beliefs/thoughts, the more experiences will simply show up in your life to get you to see what you are holding on to.

And the reason for this is because the greater part of who you really are, wanted this when you chose to be here in this life. It's all about the exploration of perspective. So, while you absolutely have the free will to choose to let those thoughts run on automatic and allow your life experience to continue to create the old, the conditioned, the fear based ego, you can choose to stand in your power, and create something different. You can choose (and yes it is about choice) to re-wire your brain towards presence, towards peace by embracing that fear and seeing that fear is no longer the only option. Presence is all about choice. Fear or Love? As ACIM would say.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby painBody » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:57 am

Enlightened2B wrote:the greater part of who you really are, wanted this when you chose to be here in this life


But, did I choose to be here ? No, I didn't. In fact, if someone had handed me an Earth brochure while I was in the womb, I would have starved myself to death while in the womb (and I've tried a few times outside the womb, too).

Sorry, I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't agree with it. I didn't consciously choose to be here, and I don't choose everything I do while here ... some, yes, but not all. Of course, I do agree that we have an influence on our perception of the world, and we're often our worst enemies, but no, I don't think we create 100% of our reality. The belief that we create our entire reality makes a nice fantasy novel, but it's not how it actually works.

"Just think happy thoughts and everything will be ok." If this is what the LoA actually is, then I can't fart loud enough to express how naive and flawed I think that belief is.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:29 am

Your skepticism on whether you chose to be here or not is well understood. I'm past the time of my life of attempting to convince people of that.
When we've believed (and often when our experience has shown) otherwise for so long, of course it seems ludicrous. Who would I be to tell you otherwise?
Just don't close yourself off to it completely, as it might grow on you over time as it did me. Because this belief (and yes it's still a belief for me, but one that seems unshakable at this point) has really changed a lot for me.

painBody wrote:"Just think happy thoughts and everything will be ok." If this is what the LoA actually is, then I can't fart loud enough to express how naive and flawed I think that belief is.


Well, I would say that's a bit of an over 'simplification' of what the LoA actually is while the actual LoA is much more in depth and has little to do with thoughts alone, but more so beliefs.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:22 am

Enlightened2B wrote:Well, I would say that's a bit of an over 'simplification' of what the LoA actually is while the actual LoA is much more in depth and has little to do with thoughts alone, but more so beliefs.

I agree. My take is this: LoA flows through our beliefs, not our thoughts. Only to the degree thoughts create beliefs are they relevant to how life unfolds for us. Try this: Think you can walk on water, then give it a shot. Next to the underlying belief that you can't possibly do it, it is destined to failure.

Even in the context of beliefs, a personal belief is limited in its effect on a larger belief structure supported by a group holding a common belief for a common experience.

We currently live in a three dimensional physical perspective. Our Greater Nature however, exists in a more multidimensional Consciousness reality. In order to glimpse beyond the three dimensional we must at minimum be open to the possibility that a greater reality exists. If we 'believe' the three dimensional is all there is, it is all we will experience. That is LoA in action.

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Mystic » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:32 am

Webwanderer wrote: Try this: Think you can walk on water, then give it a shot. Next to the underlying belief that you can't possibly do it, it is destined to failure.


I believe the law of attraction is basically a re-statement of the law of cause and effect.

Walking on water is a form of levitation. The joy of flight aka levitation can be experienced in lucid dreams. This world can be described as a collectively shared dream and when a mind within that collective insanity begins waking up then they can sometimes do what appears to be amazing things. This must weaken the grip of insanity in the collective mind for a short time.

When some people start to wake up then that causes even more people to begin waking up.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby painBody » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:49 am

(I just want to take a moment to thank everyone for a great discussion here. And of course, please continue to post !)

Here's where I'm at, in my life. And, if you'll allow a little digging into my past, I hope to convey why I feel the way I do about LoA, and if nothing else, convince you that I'm not just knocking down your beliefs in some futile attempt to prove I'm right (of course, no one is "right").

All my life, all I ever wanted was genuine human connection. I walked into every human interaction with no agendas, no lines, no rehearsals ... just an openness and an optimism that human connection is possible. Every single time I showed the innocence and niceness deep within me, I got bent over and sodomized in every way possible, by everyone in sight. For every bit of nice energy that flowed out of me, I got brutalized a thousandfold in return.

So, do I think that niceness attracts niceness ? No. Should I ? I'll let you figure that one out.

I'm basically at a point in my life where I couldn't care less about theory and beliefs and formulas and recipes ... they don't impress me except for their potential entertainment value. Show me that something has actually worked for you or someone else, and then, I might consider that there is truth to it. Truth, to me, now, lies in how something actually manifests in the real world, rather than as an idea written in a book by some guy with a PhD. The truth is meant to be lived/realized/experienced, not just thought up. You can tell me all day long, till you're blue in the face, that 2 + 2 = 4. But, if all my life, 2 + 2 has actually added up to 5, then I couldn't care less about how you derived your equation, because truth = experience.

Hope I made some sense. Now, if the LoA has proven true for you in your life, great. It hasn't for me, so there is no convincing possible, either way. You have your experience and I have mine.

One last comment - about divine purpose. I have to, once again, shake my head in disagreement. If you've made a career out of fucking other people over and have earned billions and own 10 homes and all the news channels pay tribute to you when you die, that don't impress me one bit ... it don't mean a damn thing. And, by contrast, if you've lived your whole life in presence, sitting alone under a tree, and died alone ... well, that don't impress me much either. I guess what I'm saying is ... whether its divine or unconscious or selfless or selfish, what the fuck difference does any of it make ? So you "realized your true self" ... whoopee fuckin do ! Who cares ! There is no "purpose". I think we're all put here for a little while. It's partly up to us how things turn out, mostly up to the world - things we can't control. Do the best you can and fuck the rest. Some people have it better than others. For some people, that stay is too short; for others, far too long. For some, a vacation; for others, a prison.

It doesn't matter what "divine" state of consciousness you (think you) reached, any more than how much money you made or how much sex you had. Neither way of life means much in the end. There is, potentially, a lot of fun to be had here, and also a lot of pain and suffering. But, ultimately, a saint is no better or nobler than a sinner :) No purpose ... just experience.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Mystic » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:08 am

People can manifest forms with the law of attraction.

Maybe that could be fun or maybe not... I would rather just wake up...

This world is like a dream and some people become lucid within the dream, so they can manifest things. There is still suffering in the world. Things keep repeating over and over. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Consciousness keeps coming back here over and over ...a repeating loop.

The only way out is transcendence ... There are no paths within the world that lead out of the world...

How do I get out of this world and ascend beyond space and time?

:?:
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:11 pm

Why trascend it my friend? If you think the world needs to be transcended, then there's your perspective. I've chosen to adopt a much different belief, that I have chosen to be here (my experience has confirmed this for me as well).

I'm currently reading A Course in Miracles (the full course). I've also read a vast array of topics around the course including a couple of books which reference the Course. I have been guided in this direction for a while now. So, decided to finally dig in. What I have found so fascinating is how the Course is interpreted by different people. There's a book called 'The Disappearance of the Universe" by Gary Renard. I do not in any way recommend it. I got half way through it and chucked it, because it was becoming more and more pure nonsense. The book has interpreted the Course in often the same deluded way that many eastern non-dual teachings do. Earth is a mistake, everything here is terrible. It all needs to be transcended. The ego is the devil. If you don't transcend it, you will have to repeat cycles of birth and death. Such and such. And Mystic, I'm not in any way referencing you here, but your comment about transcendence merely reminded me of this.

But, people continue to believe this belief, when so many near death experiences, life between life case studies, numerous channels, OBE's, clearly show us that we have chosen out of love to be here, right here, right now in this perfect place because we wanted to be here, and that when we die, we are all going back home to that same place we call.....God. Everyone there will remember their true nature. There is literally nothing to transcend. Waking up to your true nature? Absolutely. This I am 100 percent on board with. If you're suffering and going through life attached to the identity of 'self', then any teaching which helps to reclaim your true identity (Self), is needed. I believe the purpose of life is merely a challenge for us to try to remember ourselves while lost in a dream, and yes, fear is a wonderful tool for us while we are here. We WANT that contrast. We WANT that fear, because fear is non existent in our true home. We want to understand what it is like. To lose ourselves within a dream (intentionally), to try to find our way out, become lucid, and in the process, we gain immense perspective through contrast and separation which adds to the infinite expansion and evolution of All That Is. Manifestation is merely one of the many beautiful things we explore while here. You need the darkness to know the Light. All That is only knows 'All....That....Is''. We are infinite, eternal beings. What more to do with eternity than explore our own imaginations?

A woman I follow on Face book. She was a suicide NDE. Her name is Kelly Sammy. She actually has a hardcore non-dual stance now since her NDE. But her NDE was magnificent. I think we just don't understand what life really is. And a background in this can be so incredibly helpful for moving forward, to understand the utter perfection of everything which we can either align with, or resist and either way we are still creating. If we can understand that everything, every choice, even suicide is complete and utter perfection, then there is nothing to ever fear in the long run:

The day I committed suicide, I overdosed on very heavy sedatives. And LOTS of them. I was in my SUV vehicle laying in the back. I felt my body slow down, my breathing become very shallow and my organs stop working. That is the only way I can describe it. I was literally 'aware' of my death. My first realization that I was "DEAD" was that I was ABOVE my vehicle looking in at my body convulsing and fluids leaving my body. I witnessed the entire thing. I didn't feel scared. No pain. No fear at all. Just a pure peace with it all. And then I was in BLISS. I was not separate from anything-I was EVERYTHING. I became it ALL. This is the oneness I now understand fully. That feeling is just one of EUPHORIA. And I never wanted to LEAVE that place. The feelings that permeated my entire BEING (even though I was not separate or a being--a really difficult thing to explain..)permeated with LOVE. And as I experienced this, I was also a witness to my entire LIFE.

I was able to view and communicate (without ever having to use words) with everyone in my life in a single brief BLIP. I was able to thank, apologize, forgive, accept, and just come to a complete AHA with all that had transpired. This was not something that felt 'necessary' or like a requirement. It was nothing like what I have heard of people having a 'life review'. There was NO judgement. No one to tell me I did this wrong, or this right. All simply WAS and all simply WAS LOVE. And even though I was able to communicate and have those moments of acceptance, apology, forgiveness, etc...that was simply because my human self wanted to close those loops. Almost like a finality if you will. And EVERY SINGLE experience was a celebration. Even those we would label 'bad' or 'wrong' were celebrated purely as an EXPERIENCE.

I feel like this co-experience of ONENESS lasted a lifetime and a second at the same time. Simply because there was NO TIME. My next experience led me to what I refer to as the Akashic Hall of Records and a huge stone table where I was greeted by many Souls, of all 'type'. Some human, others not. Here, I was shown how we as souls chart and draft our life plans. I was able to understand mine further and realize that even this experience of suicide and death was charted. I am giving you minute details simply because of time and space lol but I could talk days about each of these areas of experience during my 18 minutes of apparent 'death'.

I was shown that I would return to the physical vessel that I left and that I would still be the characteristics of Kelly, yet with a knowing that I am MORE than Kelly pre NDE. I had an amazing experience with Arch Angel Gabrielle who led me to a garden with the most magnificent colors and smells. NOTHING I can compare it to here...although I try. Gardenias and the palest of pinks...but again those don't even TOUCH what I experienced. I met my son as an adult. He told me he needed me to return. My Guide Bernadette who I also met, told me I had bigger work to do in helping others be reminded to remember WHO they are. That we are all EVERY THING and NO-THING at the same time. And we are each PERFECT in this illusion of separation. That this experience is truly just that -- and a blip on the radar of who we really are. To be JOYOUS, to be LOVE. To know the contrasts or only so we can know MORE of this JOY and LOVE.

Whenever I write or share about my experience I get a sensation of LOVE I cannot describe. It is euphoric. When I returned to my vessel/physical body...I wanted to skip through the halls of the hospital and tell everyone
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