Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Onceler » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:07 pm

I agree, E2B, life is meant to be lived, bitten into, here and now......
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:46 am

Thanks for sharing that E2B. A moving and insightful story.

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Mystic » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:34 am

Enlightened2B wrote:Why trascend it my friend? If you think the world needs to be transcended, then there's your perspective. I've chosen to adopt a much different belief, that I have chosen to be here (my experience has confirmed this for me as well).

I'm currently reading A Course in Miracles (the full course). I've also read a vast array of topics around the course including a couple of books which reference the Course. I have been guided in this direction for a while now. So, decided to finally dig in. What I have found so fascinating is how the Course is interpreted by different people. There's a book called 'The Disappearance of the Universe" by Gary Renard. I do not in any way recommend it. I got half way through it and chucked it, because it was becoming more and more pure nonsense. The book has interpreted the Course in often the same deluded way that many eastern non-dual teachings do. Earth is a mistake, everything here is terrible. It all needs to be transcended. The ego is the devil. If you don't transcend it, you will have to repeat cycles of birth and death. Such and such. And Mystic, I'm not in any way referencing you here, but your comment about transcendence merely reminded me of this.

But, people continue to believe this belief, when so many near death experiences, life between life case studies, numerous channels, OBE's, clearly show us that we have chosen out of love to be here, right here, right now in this perfect place because we wanted to be here, and that when we die, we are all going back home to that same place we call.....God. Everyone there will remember their true nature. There is literally nothing to transcend. Waking up to your true nature? Absolutely. This I am 100 percent on board with. If you're suffering and going through life attached to the identity of 'self', then any teaching which helps to reclaim your true identity (Self), is needed. I believe the purpose of life is merely a challenge for us to try to remember ourselves while lost in a dream, and yes, fear is a wonderful tool for us while we are here. We WANT that contrast. We WANT that fear, because fear is non existent in our true home. We want to understand what it is like. To lose ourselves within a dream (intentionally), to try to find our way out, become lucid, and in the process, we gain immense perspective through contrast and separation which adds to the infinite expansion and evolution of All That Is. Manifestation is merely one of the many beautiful things we explore while here. You need the darkness to know the Light. All That is only knows 'All....That....Is''. We are infinite, eternal beings. What more to do with eternity than explore our own imaginations?

A woman I follow on Face book. She was a suicide NDE. Her name is Kelly Sammy. She actually has a hardcore non-dual stance now since her NDE. But her NDE was magnificent. I think we just don't understand what life really is. And a background in this can be so incredibly helpful for moving forward, to understand the utter perfection of everything which we can either align with, or resist and either way we are still creating. If we can understand that everything, every choice, even suicide is complete and utter perfection, then there is nothing to ever fear in the long run:


Hello E2B :D It is good to talk with you again. I have also read and studied A Course in Miracles. It is a great book. And I read Disappearance of the Universe too. I have to agree with you that the pure non-duality idea does not make any sense. The non-duality concept can only be a pointer to truth, not an absolute. Otherwise the whole non-duality thing becomes a case of solipsism. A Course in Miracles does not have the term "non-duality" in any of its versions either.

I remember I had a dream in 2013 that I was entering a movie theater and I was carrying a blue book. Then in 2014 I started to study the blue book, ACIM.

One thing I agree with is that this world is a collectively shared dream. Near death experience and out of body experience is a form of lucid dream but it feels like a hyper-realistic perception. In lucid dreams and OBEs you can fly. Some of the limits and sanctions of the collective unconsciousness are lifted, depending on the realm of experience one ventures into...

Consciousness can expand outside the physical body and it can form a second body with rubbery and stretchy qualities and travel around in different dimensions of experience(dream-states).

Consciousness condenses into a finite perception that is limited to a body-perspective. Every particle of matter has the basic pattern of consciousness, which is like a whirlpool or a vortex with awareness at the center. Consciousness is fundamental therefore death is an illusion.

Do we as souls want to come here? Why would any being want to give up the bliss of heaven for the agony of suffering? There has to be a deeper explanation for the reason we come to the physical planes other than the quest for a challenge :?:

Suicide is not a way out. suiciders just keep coming back here so whoever is thinking about it, don't do it.

I have fleeting memories of some past lives and I was trying to find a way out of coming back here again.

Now I believe we are here to fulfill an important function but I do not know what the function is exactly...
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Rob X » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:42 pm

Mystic wrote:I have to agree with you that the pure non-duality idea does not make any sense. The non-duality concept can only be a pointer to truth, not an absolute. Otherwise the whole non-duality thing becomes a case of solipsism. A Course in Miracles does not have the term "non-duality" in any of its versions either.


Hi Mystic

Just for the record, nondualism, properly understood, does not entail solipsism (though it can.)

Nondualism (with a small ’n’) simply means not-two or not multiple*. This sense/understanding points to the fact that even now as you read this there is nothing other than the ‘event of Life’ simply happening. That there can be separation from this is a delusion.

‘That’ which is not two is most commonly interpreted as awareness - but it doesn’t have to be. When it is interpreted as awareness, in certain understandings, there can be parallels with solipsism.



*People often assume that advaita and nonduality are synonyms. And although advaita certainly IS nondualism, nondualism is not necessarily advaita.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:16 pm

Mystic wrote:One thing I agree with is that this world is a collectively shared dream. Near death experience and out of body experience is a form of lucid dream but it feels like a hyper-realistic perception.

I would suggest that while dream lucidity can be described as waking within a dream, NDE's are more likely an awakening from the dream as there is a disconnect from the physical body. Further, dreams tend to be unique to the individual dreamer. (Some exceptions may apply). NDE/TDE/OBE's are more collective in that they involve other unique conscious beings. It's also true that lucid dreams can morph into OBE's.

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:45 pm

Hi Mystic, it's good to speak with you again as well.

Mystic wrote:Hello E2B :D It is good to talk with you again. I have also read and studied A Course in Miracles. It is a great book. And I read Disappearance of the Universe too. I have to agree with you that the pure non-duality idea does not make any sense. The non-duality concept can only be a pointer to truth, not an absolute. Otherwise the whole non-duality thing becomes a case of solipsism. A Course in Miracles does not have the term "non-duality" in any of its versions either.


It is a great Course. But, if interpreted within a certain lens, one can could easily start to view the ego as this terrible thing that needs to be fought against and dissolved. I believe in essence, everything ultimately IS non dual as Rob said. But, the belief system that we need to transcend duality back into non-duality as Gary Renard's book talks about is a complete mis-understanding of the idea to paraphrase that "God created only the love in the Universe. God does not create the suffering" or something like that in the Course itself. Gary Renard is interpreting that (and many other non-dualists) that God is only happy happy joy joy, and the suffering in the world is a terrible mistake. This is ultimately how the idea of heaven and hell came about. Yes, WE have creative control over what we want to experience here in this life. No one has to live in suffering. However, I can attest that if I hadn't suffered, and if I hadn't struggled, I wouldn't be on this forum now, because it was my very suffering and struggling which led to my spiritual path. God is ALL of it. To claim that there is God in a beautiful sunset, but (not God?) in a rape or murder is actually creating more duality. True non-duality for me, is when I am completely in love with everything including my shame, my anger, my fear, because it's all there to serve me like a child that is just scared. All of the ugliness in the world is simply stemming from people who have forgotten who they are and all of it can serve as a wonderful lesson or reminder as contrast to wake ourselves up. So why do we come here you ask? Could it be that the thrill of finding ourselves is so exciting to eternal, infinite beings? If you are already God; if you already are all that is, wouldn't you want to explore perspective in order to gain a greater understanding of what it is actually like to BE you? You can't BE you, without the experience of opposites.

Do we as souls want to come here? Why would any being want to give up the bliss of heaven for the agony of suffering? There has to be a deeper explanation for the reason we come to the physical planes other than the quest for a challenge :?:

Suicide is not a way out. suiciders just keep coming back here so whoever is thinking about it, don't do it.


It's such a difficult topic to discuss as it often becomes rather circular. There's no right or wrong. I would only suggest that the NDE I posted above and others prove that no one just keeps coming back, unless that soul CHOOSES to come back. There is an Eastern belief that suicide is 'wrong'. Suicide is merely another beautiful experience as viewed from the larger perspective. But, our human insistence that certain things are more right or wrong keep us trapped in a dualistic paradigm of belief systems. I find that eastern philosophy of re-incarnation is so vastly mis-understood because of the belief in hierarchies, linear time, etc, etc. I think these are all just more human beliefs carried over from old religious philosophies. Part of the 'old world Spirituality paradigm' which is starting to die out. Re-incarnation does not exist in the way we believe. All past and future lives are a misnomer for all lives that are actually being lived right NOW simultaneously. Plus, there are likely countless versions of in THIS very life vibrationally attracting versions of other people who match our stories. Perhaps for another conversation :)

I think the Spirit World is divinely simple and everything is a matter of choice. Why would you come here you ask? You're asking that from the human mind. I've asked it too constantly. I still ask it! What in fucks name are my doing here ha!? But, what ACIM is helping me to do, is trusting that inner voice as my guidance. I believe all of our answers are here.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Mystic » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:17 pm

Rob X wrote:Nondualism (with a small ’n’) simply means not-two or not multiple*. This sense/understanding points to the fact that even now as you read this there is nothing other than the ‘event of Life’ simply happening. That there can be separation from this is a delusion.

‘That’ which is not two is most commonly interpreted as awareness - but it doesn’t have to be. When it is interpreted as awareness, in certain understandings, there can be parallels with solipsism.



Thank you for the helpful explanation Rob X.

Ironically, both the words dualism and non-dualism form a pair of opposites.

Language is inherently dualistic...



Webwanderer wrote:
Mystic wrote:One thing I agree with is that this world is a collectively shared dream. Near death experience and out of body experience is a form of lucid dream but it feels like a hyper-realistic perception.

I would suggest that while dream lucidity can be described as waking within a dream, NDE's are more likely an awakening from the dream as there is a disconnect from the physical body. Further, dreams tend to be unique to the individual dreamer. (Some exceptions may apply). NDE/TDE/OBE's are more collective in that they involve other unique conscious beings. It's also true that lucid dreams can morph into OBE's.

WW


Hello Webwanderer :D NDEs TDEs and OBEs also involve a sharing of beingness in that there is telepathy with other beings. You know the apparent other being as yourself in the experience. This happens in dreams and it occurs in this "external world" to a lesser degree as conscious perception seems to be more limited in this physical reality. All forms exist within consciousness.



Enlightened2B wrote:
Do we as souls want to come here? Why would any being want to give up the bliss of heaven for the agony of suffering? There has to be a deeper explanation for the reason we come to the physical planes other than the quest for a challenge :?:

Suicide is not a way out. suiciders just keep coming back here so whoever is thinking about it, don't do it.


Re-incarnation does not exist in the way we believe. All past and future lives are a misnomer for all lives that are actually being lived right NOW simultaneously. Plus, there are likely countless versions of in THIS very life vibrationally attracting versions of other people who match our stories. Perhaps for another conversation :)

I think the Spirit World is divinely simple and everything is a matter of choice. Why would you come here you ask? You're asking that from the human mind. I've asked it too constantly. I still ask it! What in fucks name are my doing here ha!? But, what ACIM is helping me to do, is trusting that inner voice as my guidance. I believe all of our answers are here.


ACIM speaks of having the little willingness which I believe is the little willingness to briefly let go of preconceptions and definitions of the egoic little self. "I do not know the thing I am". This allows consciousness to expand even if ever so slightly. The ego fears expansion of consciousness because it fears it would lose its identity. Therefore it has its own version of expansion by adding things to itself. It adds material possessions, concepts, identifications with forms etc, anything to maintain a sense of specialness, or separation.

Why are we here? What is time? I do not know but it could be related to the idea of the evolution of consciousness.

All evolution is evolution of consciousness because everything is consciousness. Birth and re-birth lead to biological evolution on the physical plane. Maybe consciousness and physical forms can evolve without the necessity of another biological re-birth... :?:
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:34 pm

I think we don't see it that way when we're back home. We want the experience of being here which from our human minds, at times can seem incomprehensible knowing how difficult human life can be. But, I don't personally see it that human life is something that is eventually going to be transcended so that we don't "need" to keep coming here. No one has to come to Earth as I see it. But, we choose to, because we are fascinated curious beings. We are fascinated by what separation is. We are fascinated and excited to explore a physical experience where we get to experience things as though they are real, that we can't experience when you're back home. It's like an incredibly fun movie that we immerse ourselves in, knowing full well that nothing bad could ever happen to us. But, again it's our choice to be here. There's nothing outside of us forcing us to come here.

I highly recommend the book "Answers from the Afterlife" from Nanci Danison for a larger view on these things. She's a wonderful resource of information.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:27 am

I have one thing to say, to no one specific. We are all fucking dreaming. Literally. Youre watching a 3D movie. When you know you're dreaming, it doesn't end the dreaming. You can't stop the dreaming, but you can "see" you aren't the dreamer, the one you think is doing this and that. You aren't "doing" shit, you just think you are. Try telling the doer he isn't doing. Lol
Once you "see" it, the cosmic joke, where is there to go? There's just "this", awareness, right here, that's it. Good shit, bad shit, it still comes and goes. You can't escape, because you are "that" which is intertwined and the background/substrate to all that is.

That's all I got to say. Pardon the swearing, seemed appropriate.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby painBody » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:34 am

dijmart wrote:I have one thing to say, to no one specific. We are all fucking dreaming. Literally. Youre watching a 3D movie. When you know you're dreaming, it doesn't end the dreaming. You can't stop the dreaming, but you can "see" you aren't the dreamer, the one you think is doing this and that. You aren't "doing" shit, you just think you are. Try telling the doer he isn't doing. Lol
Once you "see" it, the cosmic joke, where is there to go? There's just "this", awareness, right here, that's it. Good shit, bad shit, it still comes and goes. You can't escape, because you are "that" which is intertwined and the background/substrate to all that is.

That's all I got to say. Pardon the swearing, seemed appropriate.


Swearing is perfectly appropriate, because it's a thread I started, and because I love you Dij (and that means you have special privileges) :lol:

Who/what said swearing is bad ? The same hypocritical conditioned human madness that we're trying to get away from ? The amount a person swore doesn't fucking matter when he/she turns to ashes and dust someday.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:48 am

Oh, almost forgot, don't think if you're a good "person" people will be good to you. No, thats bullshit, it's the luck of the draw....ask anyone who works with the public...lol. That's another thought based system. Be nice, because you want to be nice, not to get niceness from apparent others.

Haha, Hi painbody, I just saw your reply when I was going to post this, with more swearing :lol: 8)

I was speaking to the mods mostly, I guess.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:00 am

painBody wrote:
Swearing is perfectly appropriate, because it's a thread I started, and because I love you Dij (and that means you have special privileges) :lol:

.


Ah, thats sweet! Thanks PB :wink:
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby painBody » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:55 am

dijmart wrote:Oh, almost forgot, don't think if you're a good "person" people will be good to you. No, thats bullshit, it's the luck of the draw....ask anyone who works with the public...lol.


Ask anyone who was born on this Earth. That's what I was trying to say when I shared my view on the LoA. Niceness attracts feces, in my experience. You want to be treated nicely ? You gotta get on top.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Mystic » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:08 am

Enlightened2B wrote:I think we don't see it that way when we're back home. We want the experience of being here which from our human minds, at times can seem incomprehensible knowing how difficult human life can be. But, I don't personally see it that human life is something that is eventually going to be transcended so that we don't "need" to keep coming here. No one has to come to Earth as I see it. But, we choose to, because we are fascinated curious beings. We are fascinated by what separation is. We are fascinated and excited to explore a physical experience where we get to experience things as though they are real, that we can't experience when you're back home. It's like an incredibly fun movie that we immerse ourselves in, knowing full well that nothing bad could ever happen to us. But, again it's our choice to be here. There's nothing outside of us forcing us to come here.

I highly recommend the book "Answers from the Afterlife" from Nanci Danison for a larger view on these things. She's a wonderful resource of information.



Reading about NDEs will only take you so far. Dreams, visions, OBEs and even NDEs are all very symbolic. It could take a lot of practice to still the mind and strip away the layers of unconscious resistance. Alert stillness is what Eckhart Tolle calls it. Robert Monroe wrote some helpful books about his OBE methods. Much of what I have experienced is in agreement with his writings.

I do not recommend the flatliner method though... :shock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUDV0CUzG0k


dijmart wrote:I have one thing to say, to no one specific. We are all fucking dreaming. Literally. Youre watching a 3D movie. When you know you're dreaming, it doesn't end the dreaming. You can't stop the dreaming, but you can "see" you aren't the dreamer, the one you think is doing this and that. You aren't "doing" shit, you just think you are. Try telling the doer he isn't doing. Lol



I agree that this is a collectively shared dream but are we truly helpless and powerless within this collective unconsciousness?


:?:
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Rob X » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:18 pm

Mystic wrote:
Rob X wrote:Nondualism (with a small ’n’) simply means not-two or not multiple*. This sense/understanding points to the fact that even now as you read this there is nothing other than the ‘event of Life’ simply happening. That there can be separation from this is a delusion.

‘That’ which is not two is most commonly interpreted as awareness - but it doesn’t have to be. When it is interpreted as awareness, in certain understandings, there can be parallels with solipsism.



Thank you for the helpful explanation Rob X.

Ironically, both the words dualism and non-dualism form a pair of opposites.

Language is inherently dualistic...


Yes, the words form a pair of opposites.

But that which the word nonduality attempts to convey knows no opposite.

If an opposite were to be imagined - it would be that too.
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