Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:44 pm

Mystic wrote:
dijmart wrote:I have one thing to say, to no one specific. We are all fucking dreaming. Literally. Youre watching a 3D movie. When you know you're dreaming, it doesn't end the dreaming. You can't stop the dreaming, but you can "see" you aren't the dreamer, the one you think is doing this and that. You aren't "doing" shit, you just think you are. Try telling the doer he isn't doing. Lol



I agree that this is a collectively shared dream but are we truly helpless and powerless within this collective unconsciousness?
:


When you "feel" you have choice, you should exert that choice..always. It's just "seeing" that that choice was going to happen regardless of you thinking you were the one choosing it. So, instead of me thinking " "I" made this choice", it's just what's happening. The "I" that's stating it "made a choice", is an illusion. For example, "I" quit nicotine (vaping) and caffeine 2 weeks ago. The "I" could claim it made the choice, yada-yada or it can be seen as just what happened, without a "me" claiming it. However, language is dualistic by nature, so it seems like there's a claiming if I say, "I quit smoking" which is the natural thing to say.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby rachMiel » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:05 pm

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:24 pm

dijmart wrote:When you "feel" you have choice, you should exert that choice..always. It's just "seeing" that that choice was going to happen regardless of you thinking you were the one choosing it. So, instead of me thinking " "I" made this choice", it's just what's happening. The "I" that's stating it "made a choice", is an illusion. For example, "I" quit nicotine (vaping) and caffeine 2 weeks ago. The "I" could claim it made the choice, yada-yada or it can be seen as just what happened.

I see it as a bit of both. The 'I' that is making a choice as a physical human is no illusion (although the conditions are). That aspect of being that is us and sees itself as this human expression is an extension of our own greater being. It is an extension born of an eternal essence. It has the power of choice albeit comparatively and intentionally limited in its scope.

The greater 'I' is aware of it's 'adventure' in consciousness and is very much an interested observer. That is why meditation and presence are so valuable - because it helps bring our two perspectives back into alignment where more clarity and insight can be had from that greater beingness. There is inherent in this relationship an unmistakable guidance system for anyone willing to explore it.

Choices are also much about momentum. Beliefs are the result of choices made in our practiced judgments about right and wrong, truth and falsehoods, and much more. Our beliefs focus the natural and endless flow of life energy into experiential reality. It's not that the appearances in this world are real in and of themselves. What is real is the experience of them. The house we live in, the car we drive, the ailments and conditions we may suffer, may fairly be called illusions and will eventually pass away, but the experience of them will remain forever.

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:36 pm

WW,
My take is that what can be experienced does apparently exist, even if momentarily, it's just not real. Just like a night time dream seems real when experiencing it, but when awakened, it is seen to be unreal.
So, to me everything perceivable and conceivable is a waking dream. Unless the "I" is "seen/known" as awareness/consciousness, then it (aka-ego) is also part of the dream, imo. The true "I" is "prior to" all content, including the body/mind, ect. It's the "content" that I'm saying is the waking dream.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:03 pm

rachMiel wrote:Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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...life is but a dream.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby rachMiel » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:36 pm

Is there a dreamer?
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:35 pm

rachMiel wrote:Is there a dreamer?


This can be thought of 2 ways-

1) Everything is awareness, so awareness is dreaming.

2) The mind, created from, imbued and permeated by awareness, is the dreamer. How do you know? When the mind abates in deep sleep, there is no dream or dreaming.

Edit- see my next post. I added to this/corrected, however you want to view it.
Last edited by dijmart on Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:57 pm

dijmart wrote:WW,
My take is that what can be experienced does apparently exist, even if momentarily, it's just not real. Just like a night time dream seems real when experiencing it, but when awakened, it is seen to be unreal.
So, to me everything perceivable and conceivable is a waking dream. Unless the "I" is "seen/known" as awareness/consciousness, then it (aka-ego) is also part of the dream, imo. The true "I" is "prior to" all content, including the body/mind, ect. It's the "content" that I'm saying is the waking dream.

I don't disagree that what can be experienced, the substance and construct of it, is generally illusory. It's just the temporary trappings and structure that are used for something far more fundamental. The point I'm making is that the experience of the illusion itself is real. Can you un-experience something? Even in a nightly dream, you can convince yourself it wasn't real, that it was only a dream. But even in knowing that, the feel and memory of the dream remains available because it was real experience. What does it feel like to be chased by a monster? In dreams we can have such an experience and get a sense of the inner workings of our minds.

People who can lucid dream at will can practice skills there and return with valid experience to the waking state. Dancers and figure skaters have practiced moves there where there was no risk of injury and then did them with confidence once awake because they had successful experience.

And then, from a higher consciousness perspective, is not all experience forever available regardless of its substance? Do we not learn from every experience? Does experience not become a part of who we are?
Our childhood bodies and mindsets are long gone, but the experience of it remains a part of us our entire lives.

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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:03 pm

dijmart wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Is there a dreamer?


This can be thought of 2 ways-

1) Everything is awareness, so awareness is dreaming.

2) The mind, created from, imbued and permeated by awareness, is the dreamer. How do you know? When the mind abates in deep sleep, there is no dream or dreaming.


BUT, Isvara/God is, imo, the creator, sustainer and destroyer of the dream. So, I guess the mind facilitates the dream, but yea, it doesn't create it. That's why when you wake up from the dream, it still continues, because you aren't creating it.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby rachMiel » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:26 pm

dijmart wrote:
dijmart wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Is there a dreamer?


This can be thought of 2 ways-

1) Everything is awareness, so awareness is dreaming.

2) The mind, created from, imbued and permeated by awareness, is the dreamer. How do you know? When the mind abates in deep sleep, there is no dream or dreaming.


BUT, Isvara/God is, imo, the creator, sustainer and destroyer of the dream. So, I guess the mind facilitates the dream, but yea, it doesn't create it. That's why when you wake up from the dream, it still continues, because you aren't creating it.

It keeps coming back to that central question, doesn't it: Who/what am I? Some-thing, no-thing, every-thing?
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:08 pm

[quote]WW said- The point I'm making is that the experience of the illusion itself is real.
[/quote]
So, I quoted what you said above, because that's where it seemed to veer off for me.

You say, "the experience of the illusion itself is real."
I say, "the experience of the illusion itself exists (apparently), as it can be experienced, but its ultimately unreal." Mithya refers to an illusion being superimposed upon the substratum, the real (awareness).(Ie. The snake and the rope).

So, we have a fundamental disagreement, that I doubt will be resolved here in this thread. To me Mithya (illusion) is an appearance. Sure it feels real, that's why it's so frickin' convincing and there sooo much suffering, because everyone thinks it's absolutely real, when it's only apparent.

I'm not saying that there's no afterlife, NDE's (I know your into that) and all that jazz, but I am saying, it's all just as much a part of the "dream", as everything else.

[quote]Can you un-experience something?[/quote]

That's just held through memory, an aspect of mind, which is often times faulty and again part of the dream. People with severe memory problems dont have recall of experience. They live in the now, now, now...like babies do.

Anyways, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Just telling campfire stories as RM would say. Whether we agree, don't agree, doesn't matter to me very much.

Ps. I can't get the "quotes" to work in this post!
Last edited by dijmart on Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby dijmart » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:30 pm

It keeps coming back to that central question, doesn't it: Who/what am I? Some-thing, no-thing, every-thing?


Ha, yes. What am I? To answer your question- all of the above!
Well, since I'm awareness, which is the background/substratum to all the apparent objects. That means all the objects (mithya/illusion), including Jiva (person) and Isvara (god) are created from me, so they are me, awareness. But I, pure awareness, am not them. It's all an illusion, appearing in me, created from me, starring me, with me watching ..hahaha.

So, you're all of it, in one way or another. :wink:
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:15 am

Mystic wrote:
Reading about NDEs will only take you so far. Dreams, visions, OBEs and even NDEs are all very symbolic. It could take a lot of practice to still the mind and strip away the layers of unconscious resistance. Alert stillness is what Eckhart Tolle calls it. Robert Monroe wrote some helpful books about his OBE methods. Much of what I have experienced is in agreement with his writings.



I agree very much so about NDE's. Same goes for OBE's, and any kind of TSE. Spiritual discussions often have two sides. There's the conceptual/philosophical aspect where we all argue and debate with each over the nature of reality. Oh had some good ones here on this forum 8)

Then there's the (what I like to call) the "real" spiritual discussions which is where we share our own, vulnerable deep experiences. The latter is what suits more better these days. However, a frame work for understanding the nature of reality can serve greatly in helping us to move further into our experience openly, vulnerably with a sense of trust. And this frame work can come through understanding the immense wisdom in these NDE/TSE's. But, there is only select NDE/TSE's that I refer to these days due to the varying belief systems of the experiencer/s. Again it's just a reference point like anything else.
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Re: Is presence really just self-restraint in disguise ?

Postby ixtlander » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:18 pm

when you are present, you will know what to do. it will not be a compulsive urge such as eating the ice cream cone, but you/it(life, intelligence) still Could Decide to, not as a compulsive urge but as a decision base in awareness, eat the ice cream. Or you could rub it on your face or drop it who knows. If you cannot remain present and hold(feel completely within your consciousness the thoughts and the impulses they create in your consciousness until they dissipate, the thoughts/impulses will take you over and you will eat the ice cream if your mind is conditioned to doing so. The only way out is through.
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