My verdict on this whole thing

[Onceler]

I also don't think presence dissolves any negative thing. It can make things worse, at least it did for me.

Really? Uh? This isn't my experience at all. My capacity for suffering is huge, potentially, without bringing "presence" into my daily life. Otherwise the mind is just on an endless hamster wheel.

Yup, hate to say it as it goes counter to all that is non-dual, but being present made my anxiety and depression worse in most cases and sent my mind into a tailspin. There's some good literature on meditation and the potential for an increase in anxiety symptoms for some people with presence, mindfulness, presence techniques. You might argue that I wasn't doing it right (I certainly did and felt there was something wrong with me, thereby increasing anxiety) but after years, decades, of trying everything under the sun to gain presence I think I would have stumbled on something. I don't think it should be that hard or that much work. And it turns out it's not. My mind is no longer an endless hamster wheel (although it was most of my life), but a curious, calm, functioning entity, totally human, mostly sane.

I'm glad it works for you and others, but obviously (from the narratives of many posters here and elsewhere) it doesn't work for everyone and it certainly didn't work for me. It made things worse.

[dijmart]

You might argue that I wasn't doing it right

Nah, I think I've reached an end of wanting to talk about this stuff or it seems that way, for now, at least. I saw that the great cosmic joke is "this is it folks". No where to go and really nothing to do. For me, if I'm present/aware it all goes smoother, there is a gap between me (awareness) and what appears in me. That sure feels like me! Ack, enough of that... I literally forget what I use to do with my free time before spirituality came along. Lol

[Mystic]

I don't think it should be that hard or that much work. And it turns out it's not. My mind is no longer an endless hamster wheel (although it was most of my life), but a curious, calm, functioning entity, totally human, mostly sane.

Hello Onceler

I recall that you said you practice the John Sherman method of self directed attention.

http://www.justonelook.org/natural/tag/meditation/

http://www.justonelook.org/index2.html

In the same way that you directed your attention to the feeling of your breath as it passed through your nostrils, now direct the focus of your attention inward, looking for the faint sensation of what it feels like to be you. What you would call me.

This looks to me to be the same teaching as Eckhart Tolle, though it uses different words and ideas.

[Onceler]

Same for me dijmart. You put it well.

Mystic, I don't practice the self directed attention. John Sherman's looking method cleared things up for me (this only takes a few moments and probably could be termed presence, as one feels the presence of ones self.....it more like inquiry, but not a continued practice. I honestly have no clue how it is different or how it works when everything else I tried failed, but there it is). Self directed attention is used during the 'recovery' period, when everything falls apart and ones mind reorganizes to adapt to a fear free life. This can take years and the self directed attention (I think it's mindfulness) is supposed to sharpen ones attention. I never did it as I was burnt out on meditation and my mind healed on it's own. I do qigong now as a moving meditation, but it's more because I suffer aches and pains, not painful emotions. During qigong I can move into a state I call flow where I get lost in the movements and also lost in thinking.....I often plan my day and take care of internal business at this time. Flow can happen anytime one is immersed in something, working playing, etc.

I'm not trying to start an argument as I respect everyone's path, nor do I feel a need to defend my current state (dijmart stated it better than I could have) I just wanted to put something out there for those reading this who feel like meditation and presence just doesnt 'work'. It can be painful to try to this stuff for years; meditate ones butt off, read books, go to retreats and seminars, read posts where others seem to get something you never will, as ones misery only increases with continued practice. I had a major anxiety disorder with panic attacks (just to add to the fun) major depression, and a binge eating disorder (which neatly attenuated guilt and shame if all else failed). My state was one of continuous existential despair. I loved the idea of ET's teachings and nondual teachings in general, but my attempts at presence only worsened these conditions. I just want to tell those in similar positions that there is another way and it lies in being fully human and sane.

[Mystic]

Thank you for the clarification Onceler, it helps a lot.

Qigong is about cultivation of life energy, if I understand correctly.

Indeed, physical pain sucks!

In 2009 my back got messed up to the point that I had three compressed and herniated discs in my lumbar spine. I missed three weeks of work and doctors told me that I needed an operation. At first I was in extreme physical pain to the point that I needed crutches and could not sleep. I would just lay on the hard floor in order to minimize the pain. I decided to forego the operation and tough it out because I knew some people who had such operations and their conditions became worse ...some to the point of a needing a wheelchair.

Suffering is the great teacher. Since then my back has healed on its own through things like meditation, gradual changes in diet and the studies of spirituality. In 2016 I quit eating meat and this has also helped me much. I lost 50 lbs, lowered blood pressure, and so far have not been sick or even had a cold.

If the ego is the thought of separation and isolation then the opposite of the ego is the idea of healing, unity and reparation. I believe healing is not an isolated event but is integrated into the whole of reality.

The flow of consciousness cannot be stopped. The flow of thoughts is not always destructive. It depends on if those thoughts are towards separation and isolation or towards healing and wholeness.

[turiya]

There are thousands of religions in the world due to the fact that different words affect people differently even though most all religions are referring to the same ultimate truth of life. So people desire to worship where they can understand and accept the words.
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Mystic

Well said, Mystic

[Onceler]

Thanks for your reply mystic. My growing sanity has led me to a plant based whole foods diet as well.....the healing comes in many ways and forms. Our bodies and minds are miracles and can be quite dynamic given the right attention. It's a gift to be human, no?

[painBody]

I'm not trying to start an argument as I respect everyone's path, nor do I feel a need to defend my current state (dijmart stated it better than I could have) I just wanted to put something out there for those reading this who feel like meditation and presence just doesnt 'work'. It can be painful to try to this stuff for years; meditate ones butt off, read books, go to retreats and seminars, read posts where others seem to get something you never will, as ones misery only increases with continued practice. I had a major anxiety disorder with panic attacks (just to add to the fun) major depression, and a binge eating disorder (which neatly attenuated guilt and shame if all else failed). My state was one of continuous existential despair. I loved the idea of ET's teachings and nondual teachings in general, but my attempts at presence only worsened these conditions. I just want to tell those in similar positions that there is another way and it lies in being fully human and sane.

Wow, I've never seen you get so personal in your posts. Thanks for sharing. It helps to read about the experiences of others. (And I can relate to the binge eating, which still affects me)

You make a lot of sense to me, Onceler. Yes, indeed, there is another way, and it lies in embracing one's human form, while (hopefully) also allowing presence in. Presence doesn't need to be a painful scheduled ritual; nor does it need to be an obstacle when it comes to enjoying life in form.

To what you said, I'll add that presence can not only be painful; there is also no need to sit in thoughtless awareness all day long everyday, much less is it realistically possible. I sense this misconception in what a lot of people here say. It seems like they're chasing after some sort of 24/7 nirvana ... the keyword being "chasing".

Eckhart says it best, and I'll rephrase ... Let presence be a way to introduce gaps into one's insanity.

[dijmart]

Onceler said- Same for me dijmart. You put it well

Thanks! Just when I thought we were seeing things differently, guess not.

I've had various addictions/habits over the years. A month and a half ago I quit nicotine (I vaped for the past 5 yrs, since stopping smoking). The withdrawl process (no patch or gum) was horrible. I took 5 days off work to get over that addiction. I also reduced my caffeine consumption from daily (all day)... to occasional.

I also have bouts of binge eating, that is sparked by sweets and a shitty diet. That is getting tackled this coming week (I plan for a week, then start the next week typically). It causes me to gain/loose the same 20 lbs over and over. I'm truly sick of it.

In the past, I clean up my diet, count calories and cut out sweets completely, but then 2 months later when I lost the weight I'd eat some sweets, some crap food and because I deprived myself, the cycle would start over..ugh. I suppose if it's meant to end it will, just like the nicotine and caffiene, but any advice welcome.

Ps, yes, I'm going to start exercise next week, which just might kill me. So, if you never hear from me again, you'll know what happened.

[Onceler]

Ha, you must not have read my older posts, PB. I also recall saying something back in the day which I think is important to this thread. That presence, peace stillness, mindfulness should not be primary pursuits as they are secondary side effects to the deep realizations of who we are. It's like assuming the habits of someone you admire, the food they eat, the cloths they wear in an attempt to be successful like them. Trying to be present doesn't create presence, well maybe a little, but for me it created anxiety. Presence happens after a cathartic realization, as it did for ET. It's a by product of resolving, deeply seeing and feeling who you are. I believe that once you have made contact with your deepest identity, fear is gone and presence happens naturally, peace happens naturally, and stillness happens naturally. The mind is no longer neurotic, seeking salvation or distraction. Ones thinking is clear and efficient as the mind heals. That's what happened to me. That's when I realized I had it backwards.

[Onceler]

Onceler said- Same for me dijmart. You put it well

Thanks! Just when I thought we were seeing things differently, guess not.

I've had various addictions/habits over the years. A month and a half ago I quit nicotine (I vaped for the past 5 yrs, since stopping smoking). The withdrawl process (no patch or gum) was horrible. I took 5 days off work to get over that addiction. I also reduced my caffeine consumption from daily (all day)... to occasional.

I also have bouts of binge eating, that is sparked by sweets and a shitty diet. That is getting tackled this coming week (I plan for a week, then start the next week typically). It causes me to gain/loose the same 20 lbs over and over. I'm truly sick of it.

In the past, I clean up my diet, count calories and cut out sweets completely, but then 2 months later when I lost the weight I'd eat some sweets, some crap food and because I deprived myself, the cycle would start over..ugh. I suppose if it's meant to end it will, just like the nicotine and caffiene, but any advice welcome.

Ps, yes, I'm going to start exercise next week, which just might kill me. So, if you never hear from me again, you'll know what happened. :lol:

I simply can't eat sugar or processed foods, much like many alcoholics can never drink. I'm resigned to this and I actually like a plant based Whole Foods diet.....I eat fruit for my sweet tooth, but mostly vegetables, beans, whole grains, and fruit. It's a very healing diet and many physical and emotional issue resolve themsves. These foods are as powerful and healing as medicine, actually more powerful and healing than medicine in my opinion and according to a growing body of research. There's many stories of people healing congestive heart failure and chronic conditions like type two diabetes. I feel the diet is healing many years of food abuse, substance abuse, and emotional stress. It's a trick to get onto, but once you pass the 21 day mark and feel the changes it gets easier. Check out Dr. Joel Furhman', Engine no.2. Forks over knives, Dr Caldwell Essystyn, or other whole food guys, if interested.

Good luck!

[dijmart]

I simply can't eat sugar or processed foods, much like many alcoholics can never drink. I'm resigned to this

Crap!...

Thanks! I may have to rethink this, meaning look into the resources you posted. Perhaps change my plan...

[painBody]

Onceler said- Same for me dijmart. You put it well

Thanks! Just when I thought we were seeing things differently, guess not.

I've had various addictions/habits over the years. A month and a half ago I quit nicotine (I vaped for the past 5 yrs, since stopping smoking). The withdrawl process (no patch or gum) was horrible. I took 5 days off work to get over that addiction. I also reduced my caffeine consumption from daily (all day)... to occasional.

I also have bouts of binge eating, that is sparked by sweets and a shitty diet. That is getting tackled this coming week (I plan for a week, then start the next week typically). It causes me to gain/loose the same 20 lbs over and over. I'm truly sick of it.

In the past, I clean up my diet, count calories and cut out sweets completely, but then 2 months later when I lost the weight I'd eat some sweets, some crap food and because I deprived myself, the cycle would start over..ugh. I suppose if it's meant to end it will, just like the nicotine and caffiene, but any advice welcome.

Ps, yes, I'm going to start exercise next week, which just might kill me. So, if you never hear from me again, you'll know what happened.

Hey Dij,

In my past life, I was studying to become an NASM trainer, and trained quite a few friends/relatives/coworkers (and myself, many times) in weight loss - both training and nutrition.

I can help you come up with an exercise regimen / meal plan. PM me about it, if you want.

[painBody]

I simply can't eat sugar or processed foods, much like many alcoholics can never drink

Have you tried Stevia (natural) ?

[painBody]

That presence, peace stillness, mindfulness should not be primary pursuits as they are secondary side effects to the deep realizations of who we are. Presence happens after a cathartic realization, as it did for ET. It's a by product of resolving, deeply seeing and feeling who you are. I believe that once you have made contact with your deepest identity, fear is gone and presence happens naturally, peace happens naturally, and stillness happens naturally. The mind is no longer neurotic, seeking salvation or distraction. Ones thinking is clear and efficient as the mind heals.

Wow, you write a lot of great posts, but this one is just ... wow. You have written, concisely, and with so much clarity, exactly what I was trying to say in the original post in this thread ! Danke.

That's a great way of putting it - presence is a side effect of a deep realization of true identity, rather than a pursuit. I think this is what I was alluding to when I said in my OP, "Presence is nice when it happens spontaneously, but trying to make it my predominant state seems futile." I didn't quite nail it the way I said it, but you surely did.

To me, personally, your post is like a concise summary of all one really needs to know about what ET is saying (with some salt), but a better version. Of all the posts on this forum, it would suffice just to read this ... seriously.

Too bad it's now too late to edit the OP, otherwise, I'd plagiarize you and put these words up there