Ouch!

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Ouch!

Postby rachMiel » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:04 pm

Hi everyone. :-)

I just found out that the severe-ish back and hip pain I've been having for the past few weeks is from a herniated disc. It's fixable, with physical therapy, which is great news. But healing will most likely be slow, and in the meantime I am in pretty much chronic pain.

My inclination when I'm in persistent pain is to kind of fold up into myself. But I'd really like to challenge that this time, to remain present and aware through the process, even if it feels counterintuitive.

Any tips on how to deal with this?

Thanks,

Rick
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Re: Ouch!

Postby dijmart » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:46 am

Hi Rick,

Physical pain is quite a bitch! I have M.S. so have had my bouts of excruciating nerve pain. My best advice other then the obvious medical stuff (meds, heat packs, therapy, ect) is to create a mental gap to seperate you from the pain. Meaning, yes, there IS pain, but is it "your" pain? No, there's just pain. You are witness to it. I don't know if this is making sense, but the gist is to try not to "become" the pain. Let it be there, with you as the witness (ie, creates the gap).
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Re: Ouch!

Postby rachMiel » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:10 am

Thanks. :-)

I've had a goodly amount of experience with pain, and I agree. If I remain in the moment, instead of building a story of woe and melodrama around the pain, it all flows better. Also, if I really observe the pain, I find that it is not a solid block of OUCH, rather more of a cloud with gaps between the actual impulses of pain.
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Re: Ouch!

Postby kiki » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:01 am

With physical pain there is no avoiding it - it exists, so there is no getting around that fact. As dijmart mentioned, about the only thing you can do is accept its presence. But, you can stay out of the story of the pain. It's the story of the pain that causes suffering within the mind, and that suffering is avoidable. Pain is raw, real and immediate, and paradoxically that can take you directly into the present moment if you stay out of the story behind it. It's the story behind the pain that brings the burden of suffering to the mind.

I am prone to kidney stone attacks, having had them four times. If you've ever had one you know how excruciating the pain can be. During my last episode I had one that continued for 26 straight hours. During that time I allowed myself to feel the full intensity of it without attaching any story to it. The striking thing I noticed during that whole time was an attending silence/stillness/peacefulness. The pain did not abate, but I was free from suffering.

Good luck to you.

An aside comment to dijmart: I have done 4 bicycle rides of 300 miles in Minnesota to raise money for the MS Society for research and outreach programs for those who have multiple sclerosis. These rides are called TRAMs (The Ride Across Minnesota), and there are usually around 800 to 1000 riders participating in this event which is held each July. Each year has a new route, and we camp out after each daily leg.

Our camping gear is transported for us to each host city, and there are four rest stops each day that provide snacks and hydration fluids to all riders. There are people on motorcycles patrolling the route to look for riders in trouble, and riding martials to make sure people are following riding guidelines. Bike mechanics are available for those who need help with problems with their bikes, and a SAG van to transport people who can't continue for one reason or another.

The MS Society has these sorts of rides throughout the country, but the one in Minnesota is the only one that has a 300 mile 5 day event, and it is considered to be one of the best of its kind. Other MS Society sponsored event are usually 150 mile two day events, and these usually have many more riders that the TRAM events. One of my riding team's members was someone who actually has MS, and these riders get special acknowledgment by the organizers.

Host cities provide entertainment at a campground, and bring in food venders for those who don't choose to go into eating establishments in town. There is something different going on each night, and Thursday nights are reserved for team competitions involving skits and songs relating to MS and TRAM.

Riders range in age from 13 and on up. I think the oldest rider was 93 on my last TRAM, and that was his final ride. It's quite an event. My avatar photo is taken from one of these events.
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Re: Ouch!

Postby dijmart » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:14 am

If I remain in the moment, instead of building a story of woe and melodrama around the pain, it all flows better.


Right! You'll have to give yourself a break though, here and there, as a " story" may slip in there, occasionally. Just refocus when that happens or bitch and moan, then refocus.
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Re: Ouch!

Postby dijmart » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:23 am

An aside comment to dijmart: I have done 4 bicycle rides of 300 miles in Minnesota to raise money for the MS Society for research and outreach programs for those who have multiple sclerosis.


Wow! Cool! That's a lot of miles, for sure. From what you describe it all sounds pretty neat. I've done a few MS walks years ago, but trying to get people to pay up, after I did the walk, was just not my thing.

Especially when some complained they didnt have the money. Made me feel really awkward, maybe because I have MS, not sure. Anyways, I do pretty good for someone who was diagnosed 26 years ago. Usually, no complaints...and I stopped MS drugs 15 years ago do to side effects. I know many are not so lucky. :(
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Re: Ouch!

Postby Mystic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:42 am

rachMiel wrote:Hi everyone. :-)

I just found out that the severe-ish back and hip pain I've been having for the past few weeks is from a herniated disc. It's fixable, with physical therapy, which is great news. But healing will most likely be slow, and in the meantime I am in pretty much chronic pain.

My inclination when I'm in persistent pain is to kind of fold up into myself. But I'd really like to challenge that this time, to remain present and aware through the process, even if it feels counterintuitive.

Any tips on how to deal with this?

Thanks,

Rick


Mic the Vegan has some good information :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JepHGvL00LI


80% with chronic low back pain have clogged spinal arteries:
http://tinyurl.com/jhehqae

"Almost every North American child over the age of 3 y has some degree of aortic fatty streaks."
http://tinyurl.com/hvogavc

By age 20, 10% of people have advanced spinal artery blockages.
http://tinyurl.com/zpffoe6

Disc Degeneration with Age Study:
http://tinyurl.com/zlxqqpy

200 people study, whole food vegan diet reverses heart disease:
http://tinyurl.com/ozokjfm

Ornish, 82% artery clogging reversed in 1 year:
http://tinyurl.com/j9ek3nt

Low carb diet increases artery blockage by 40-50%:
http://tinyurl.com/zfy2rpt

Nutritionfacts.org video on the subject:
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/back-

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Re: Ouch!

Postby rachMiel » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:42 am

kiki wrote:I am prone to kidney stone attacks, having had them four times. If you've ever had one you know how excruciating the pain can be. During my last episode I had one that continued for 26 straight hours. During that time I allowed myself to feel the full intensity of it without attaching any story to it. The striking thing I noticed during that whole time was an attending silence/stillness/peacefulness. The pain did not abate, but I was free from suffering.

Wow! Fantastic. It's like you were giving birth!

I wonder how it would've been for you if you didn't know how long it would take for the pain to stop: a day, a week, a month, a year, longer? If it were me and the pain kept paining, I think some degree of story would eventually start to seep in: Woe is me — look at how long I have been in pain, will it ever end?
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Re: Ouch!

Postby dijmart » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:16 am

If it were me and the pain kept paining, I think some degree of story would eventually start to seep in: Woe is me — look at how long I have been in pain, will it ever end?


Yep, as you know, that's how it typically is, then create the gap..over and over. Just today I had nerve pain intermittently shooting down both my arms all day. I thought, "thanks a lot Rachmiel, got me thinking about pain and here we go!!!"..lol. I swear I said this :lol: Then I thought, so how long is this shit going to last!#!#! Then, I ignored it (created the gap). Anyways, it lasted about 5 hours, then poof gone. That's MS for ya, you never know how long it's gonna stick around.
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Re: Ouch!

Postby painBody » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:53 am

Hey dude,

I know how you feel. I've had a herniated disk (L4/L5) since 2011. Why do you think I call myself "painBody" ? :lol: Because I have a rubbery thing between my vertebrae, that keeps pinching a nerve and producing a lot of chronic pain in my body :D

Have you noticed that staying in the same position for long (standing, sitting, etc) produces soreness and pain that becomes sharp/acute when you finally change positions ?

I'll tell you what I've tried - PT, Chiropractors, injections of analgesics (forget the name ... Cortisone !), rest, invasive surgery (diskectomy ... spelling ?) in which they shaved off the excess fluid from the bulging disk, all kinds of painkillers. And, the short version is ... nothing worked long-term. But, that may be because I continued to subject my back to heavy loads (lifting at the gym).

If you have them inject Cortisone into your back, it may numb the pain (for a few weeks, at most), provided they shoot it into exactly the right spot. They missed twice with me, and got it right the third time. I was pain free for a few weeks, and then, it was like, "Oh, back to normal now :x :evil: "

They say that, with enough rest, herniated disks can heal. I don't know if this is true. I think this is something that you'll probably need to live with, like I do.

One huge lesson I learned from all this is to keep my spine neutral at all times, but esp. when lifting loads (boxes or whatever). This is the most important thing to minimize pain and further injury. What does this mean in simple words ? When you bend down to pick up a gallon of milk from the fridge, don't bend your back ... squat ! When you drop something on the floor, and want to pick it up, don't bend your back; squat ! i.e. keep your spine neutral !

Whenever you're lifting something, engage your ab muscles (suck your stomach in as if you're trying to avoid passing gas, but continue breathing normally). If you go to PT, they'll show you how. Just Google "neutral spine". If you do PT, they'll tell you all about it and recommend exercises to strengthen your core - i.e. any muscles that help support the spine, of which your abdominal muscles are just one kind.

I.e. There is a reason why mother nature gave your spine a natural curvature. Don't argue with her or try to defy her !

Plus, if you feel soreness after staying in the same position for hours, make sure to get up and move every once in a while. Walking is great for this.

I'll add something when I remember something I've missed (I'm sure I've missed a lot).

Bottom line: This is going to be a lifestyle change. No quick fixes or cures that I know of. But, it is entirely manageable. Just don't rely on the medical profession to do anything for you (unless your luck is way better than mine). Recovery is going to be largely dependent on you.

I even went back to lifting after a year of rest post-surgery, and would never have stopped lifting (barring the total downfall).

Best,
K
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Re: Ouch!

Postby Onceler » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:44 pm

Mystic wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Hi everyone. :-)

I just found out that the severe-ish back and hip pain I've been having for the past few weeks is from a herniated disc. It's fixable, with physical therapy, which is great news. But healing will most likely be slow, and in the meantime I am in pretty much chronic pain.

My inclination when I'm in persistent pain is to kind of fold up into myself. But I'd really like to challenge that this time, to remain present and aware through the process, even if it feels counterintuitive.

Any tips on how to deal with this?

Thanks,

Rick


Mic the Vegan has some good information :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JepHGvL00LI


80% with chronic low back pain have clogged spinal arteries:
http://tinyurl.com/jhehqae

"Almost every North American child over the age of 3 y has some degree of aortic fatty streaks."
http://tinyurl.com/hvogavc

By age 20, 10% of people have advanced spinal artery blockages.
http://tinyurl.com/zpffoe6

Disc Degeneration with Age Study:
http://tinyurl.com/zlxqqpy

200 people study, whole food vegan diet reverses heart disease:
http://tinyurl.com/ozokjfm

Ornish, 82% artery clogging reversed in 1 year:
http://tinyurl.com/j9ek3nt

Low carb diet increases artery blockage by 40-50%:
http://tinyurl.com/zfy2rpt

Nutritionfacts.org video on the subject:
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/back-



I agree, Mystic. A plant based, Whole Foods diet is more powerful than medicine, as much of the research is now showing. There is even preliminary research on this type of diet reversing Alzheimer's. I believe I got rid of many chronic conditions, some of them chronic pain conditions, with this type of diet and qigong.
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Re: Ouch!

Postby Mystic » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:04 am

Onceler wrote:A plant based, Whole Foods diet is more powerful than medicine, as much of the research is now showing. There is even preliminary research on this type of diet reversing Alzheimer's. I believe I got rid of many chronic conditions, some of them chronic pain conditions, with this type of diet and qigong.


Yes, mammals are somewhat like us because they have a more specific kind of consciousness and they experience acute suffering.

Many animals can pass the mirror test for self awareness ...even ants too? !

http://www.animalcognition.org/2015/04/ ... rror-test/

In 2015, scientists published research11 that suggests some ants can recognize themselves when looking in a mirror. When viewing other ants through glass, ants didn’t divert from their normal behaviors.

However, their behavior did change when they were put in front of a mirror. The ants would move slowly, turn their heads back and forth, shake their antennae, and touch the mirror. They’d retreat and re-approach the mirror. Sometimes they would groom themselves.

Ant Mirror Test, animals that have passed the mirror testThe ants were next given a classic mirror test. The team of researchers would use blue dots to mark the clypeus of some of the ants, which is a part of their face near their mouths.

When in an environment without mirrors, these ants would behave normally, and wouldn’t touch the markings. But this changed when they could see their reflections in a mirror. The ants with blue dots on their face would groom and appear to try to remove the markings.

Very young ants, and other ants with brown dots that blended in with the color of their face didn’t clean themselves. Interestingly, neither did ants with blue dots put on the back of their heads.

When put in the company of those with blue-dotted faces, other ants would respond aggressively, presumably because the difference caused them to think the blue-dotted ant was an outsider (not a member of their colony). All of this lead the researchers to conclude that the clypeus is a species-specific physical characteristic that is important for group acceptance.

Given that these ants tried to clean the mark rather than respond aggressively, the ants likely didn’t think their reflection was just another ant. The team thinks their study shows that self-recognition is not an “unrealistic” ability in ants.



I believe plants have a more general kind of consciousness than animals ...not sure.

Eating animal products increases the rates of atherosclerosis in humans. Eating plants has been shown to reverse it.

http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/study03/

Eating animal products leads to clogged arteries in the back and spine which weakens the discs and causes their degeneration. My back feels much better now that I have given up eating meat for this past year. :D
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Re: Ouch!

Postby painBody » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:46 am

Wanted to add a couple of things that just occurred to me.

- Lumbar support: Whenever you sit, make sure your lumbar region is supported. This will help maintain your neutral spine position and mitigate soreness and pain. This includes your driver's seat when you drive, and any chairs/couches etc. If the seat/chair doesn't have built in support, insert a pillow or even a folded up towel behind your lumbar region.

- Raise your legs (when in bed): When you sleep (if you sleep flat on your back) or just lie down in bed to watch TV or whatever, place something below your lower legs, thus raising your legs. Doing so will automatically and naturally orient your spine to make it more neutral. Try this, and you'll see how much more comfortable it is, as opposed to your normal sleeping position. An extra pillow makes a good leg support. This is something I've been doing ever since my disk herniation.

This is the general idea, although your solution doesn't need to be as expensive or sophisticated:

Image

- Impact on disks: This one is a no-brainer, but avoid any kind of physical activity that results in a jolt or sudden impact that will propagate to the disks (running/skipping/jumping). I feel silly even bringing this up, but hey, what if you feel a sudden outpouring of the joy of being and jump for joy :lol: Big no-no !

Image

Of course, if you do jump for joy, your disks will remind you.
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Re: Ouch!

Postby turiya » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:30 am

Re:
In 2015, scientists published research11 that suggests some ants can recognize themselves when looking in a mirror.


Wow! Very interesting, Mystic! :D
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Re: Ouch!

Postby dijmart » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:00 am

Rachmiel,

How are you doing? ... Hang in there buddy, PB has had some very good tips. Is anything helping to relieve the pain? Are you able to create "the gap" ?
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