NDEs

[rachMiel]

Hi everyone.

I'm a newbie to the world of NDEs. I always thought it was all pretty much hokum ... but now I wonder if this was just a knee-jerk materialist reaction.

I'm interested in reading a bit about NDEs, particularly about cases that are reliably documented, by reliable scientists, in reliable test conditions, etc.

It's a jungle out there on the web vis-a-vis NDEs ... rather than get tangled in the thick undergrowth, could someone direct me to some good sites/books?

Thanks!

[Enlightened2B]

The one I started with is this interview with Dr. Eben Alexander which I will post below. WebWanderer posted it a few years back and it was my introduction. Because Dr. Alexander is a neuro surgeon who was a hardcore materialist/atheist before his experience, and had his life completely shifted 180 degrees after his experience, I always guide people towards his experience when they ask me for NDE information, as an introduction because A) it's one of the more well known NDE's and B) His science background and his own medical analysis of his own experience including his explanation of how he actually was brain dead provides a lot.

Dr. Jeffrey Long is probably the ultimate NDE expert. Google him. I believe has at least one book he has written on NDE's. He has studied them for years. Raymond Moody is another researcher who is well known. PMH Atwater is another one. Oh, I forgot, Dr. Peter Fenwick, is a great resource as a scientist who has studied NDE's. You can research any of these people.

I agree, there's a lot of information out there on NDE's. One thing I want to point that I had to come to realize on my own Rachmiel is that near death experiences are incredibly subjective. Yes, there are, of course commonalities with all of the experiences (leaving the body, among other things, etc etc). But, each experience is unique to the person's belief systems at the time of death. It is my own personal view that, this is only a temporary aspect of the transition process, where eventually, there IS an objective aspect of the experience, but most NDE's don't go far enough to realize that. That's why we hear so many different varieties of experiences included Jesus, Allah, family members, again, dependent on the experiencer's on perceptions and beliefs at the time of death.

With that said, I'm going to provide you with two different interviews. One as I said above from Eben Alexander. The other is from an experiencer named Pam Reynolds. The reason I am providing hers is because she had her NDE during a surgical procedure, and she accessed information in the Operating room while unconscious, that she could never have possibly known, and her own doctors confirmed this. This includes conversations by the doctors while she was out, information from the other side of the room including surgical equipment. The doctors are in the interview posted below and they confirm all of this. It's pretty mind blowing

Not sure if either of these will be what you are looking for. But, while you wait for others to respond, you can check out these out in the meantime:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOSb3G53HsA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osfIY4B3y1U

This third link is from a cardiac surgeon discussing how one of his patients was confirmed dead and came back and patient confirmed tons of information in the OP room while he was unconscious. Patient again, was also confirmed dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL1oDuvQR08

[rachMiel]

Many thanks. It's funny the only guy I ever heard of in the field is Bruce Greyson, and you didn't even mention him!

[Webwanderer]

What E2B mentioned is just the tip of the iceberg. It is a very big iceberg. Anita Moorjani is another top NDEr. There are some interesting discussions in this forum over in the 'Beyond the Physical' subsection. There is so much valuable insight available through the NDE phenomena. What it offers is a perspective from the larger reality. It puts into context much of what troubles us here in the physical experience.

WW

[rachMiel]

WW and E2B, you're clearly both smart and good critical thinkers. And you both have the self insight to be able to see if you were being drawn to falsehood rather than truth.

When you first encountered NDEs and OBEs did you doubt their veracity? Or did they just always feel right/true to you? Have either of you had an NDE or OBE experience? If so, did having that experience convince you of their realness?

Confession: I'm just now (in the last few months) beginning to believe in the possibility of mental energy in the form of consciousness surviving physical death. When that door opens, all sorts of pretty amazing things are visible and accessible that were shut off earlier.

[Webwanderer]

When you first encountered NDEs and OBEs did you doubt their veracity? Or did they just always feel right/true to you? Have either of you had an NDE or OBE experience? If so, did having that experience convince you of their realness?

When I first encountered NDE's and OBE's it was genuinely an 'aha' moment. Fortunately I wasn't burdened with a lot of imposed beliefs on spirituality. It was the birth of a quality of insight that brought a level of understanding and perspective unknown to me before that. It just made so much sense and felt so right. Now that was more than forty years ago. Of course there was so little information readily available at the time it didn't bring near the clarity that it does now. We live now in a renaissance of information on the subject.

I have not had an NDE. I did however, have a minor OBE early on at the time I was reading Robert Monroe's books. It was enough to know through direct experience that the phenomena was real. I have also had many lucid dreams which are a kind of precursor to an OBE.

The most profound experience I've had was a dream I had the night after my father died. In the dream I, and his extended family, were at a kind of wake for him when the phone rang. Someone told me it was for me. When I answered I could hear, as well as see, my father in kind of a hospital bed. He was sitting up and looking younger and more robust than I ever knew him to be. He was 45 when I was born and here he looked early thirties. He said to me "I just wanted to let you know I'm okay. Tell everyone I'm okay." It was vivid.

My father died at age 78 of emphysema after a long illness. Late in life and quite ill, as often happens when facing the 'end', he got some religion. It was the old time fundamentalist stuff. He told me in a letter that the preacher told him that he wouldn't remember his loved ones here on earth once he got into Heaven - because he couldn't be happy knowing his loved one's were living in sin! Say what???

This concerned me because my studies at the time suggested that belief can create an experiential reality when we first re-enter the now-physical world. So I wrote him a pretty good letter (this was back in 1981 and he died a few months later) pointing out how the preacher was wrong and then gave him a more enlightened consideration. I felt I made a pretty good case. I think this knowledge helped him when he crossed over, and his contact with me was his way of letting me know my message had the desired effect. I do know that this dream was special in its clarity and impact as I remember it clearly today.

What I like most about the NDE and OBE phenomena is the consistency of the information and the perspective it offers in managing this human life. If we came here from a larger reality, doesn't it follow that understanding the human experience would be clearer from that larger reality? The consistency however, is not so much about individual experiences in what people see, but the underlying message behind them. The more one begins to understand the nature of the greater reality (of which this world is an element), the more the reported differences and distinctions are inclusive within this amazing universe of consciousness and being.

I encourage you to do your own research and exploration. But remember, all the books and videos in the world are only pointers. It's your own insight and how information feels that will bring clarity.

WW

[Enlightened2B]

Really cool story Web Wanderer. Thank you for sharing that. Get chills reading that.

When you first encountered NDEs and OBEs did you doubt their veracity? Or did they just always feel right/true to you? Have either of you had an NDE or OBE experience? If so, did having that experience convince you of their realness?

I actually never did doubt the veracity of the NDE or OBE. However, what I DID doubt was my initial awakening experience which happened a little prior to discovering NDE's, and whether Consciousness stemmed from the brain or not. I kept asking myself and researching so many different scientific and spiritual texts (largely Vedanta at the time) about the nature of consciousness. How do I know my own awakening experience was not a product of my brain like materialists such as Sam Harris claim? It was really driving me nuts. I was really desperate in my search to understand that my experience was actually pointing to something 'real'. WW posted a link to NDE's on this forum and that was it for me. I was sold. I don't know why. It felt so right to me. I was previously a hardcore atheist for many years. But, the depth and clarity of the information coming through these NDE's(as I researched more and more) were just undeniable. These people were either the greatest actors in the world or half of the world was just in denial about where we 'come from'.

I had a minor OBE in 2015. I had been going through horrific stress in my life. I wasn't sleeping. I kept having experiences early morning hours between 4-6AM. I would be in and out of sleep, and get this immense, intense buzzing sensation in my ears, sleep paralysis and I felt myself being pulled towards this kind of vortex of energy, but I was petrified and felt that there were entities around my bed and I simply could not let go enough. Letting go, and surrendering I have discovered is the key to allowing yourself to actually leave the body. Well, one morning, I did, I just popped out and floated to my bathroom. The minute I put my attention on my feet, I kid you not, I was back in my body in my bed. It lasted all of 30 seconds maybe? I haven't shared it with many, but I have written about it in my blog and shared it with those who I know would understand it. Honestly, it didn't change anything for me. But, I can say that it was immensely peaceful when I popped out, amidst the massive, intense, insane fear I was feeling at the same time, of being afraid of going into that sleep paralysis state. Very hard to explain. It was William Buhlman who is the expert on OBE's which gave me all of the clarity I needed on that subject matter and later discovered that there were no entities at my bed, but simply my subconscious projections of fear manifesting outwardly.

So, that's my story. I've shifted away recently from exploring NDE's, left all of the Facebook groups which I used to be a part of and have recently delved more into my own direct experience. But, having the back drop of understanding from researching hundreds of NDE's in a short amount of time (only a few years) has completely erased ANY doubts I have had about the nature of consciousness. It's like second hand knowing for me. I still come across an NDE here and there, such as the one I posted the other day on suicide (take a look if you haven't). But, yet my own experiences seem to confirm this now as even more true. Such that, when I was out under anesthesia last spring which is the ultimate deep, dreamless sleep, I went under with a lot of physical distress in my body. When I came out, I was in this immense place of bliss and joy, indescribable. I am a poor sleeper, so I wasn't used to this time of deep, dreamless sleep. Where did I go?

[rachMiel]

Sounds like both of you were open to NDEs/OBEs when you encountering them.

It's so interesting, what people are and are not open to "by nature." I've always believed in ghosts. But not in consciousness continuing past death of the physical body. It doesn't even make sense to believe A and not B, since they're so related! But when did one's "nature" ever make sense?

[Webwanderer]

But when did one's "nature" ever make sense?

Maybe... when we gain more clarity on that "nature''?

WW

[rachMiel]

I just realized that a person's "natural state" (as spoken of in many traditions) = that state in which their body-mind/thoughts/actions coincide with their "nature."

It sometimes takes me a while to catch on ...

[Webwanderer]

I just realized that a person's "natural state" (as spoken of in many traditions) = that state in which their body-mind/thoughts/actions coincide with their "nature."

It sometimes takes me a while to catch on ...

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you are saying. Can you expand on what you mean here by "nature"?

[rachMiel]

Something like: primordial essence.

The nature / primordial essence of an eye is to see, an ear to hear, a mouth to speak, breathe, eat, and so on.

Things get a little less clear when you climb the hierarchy: The nature of a body, the nature of a brain, of a mind, of a human being.

The more X coincides with this nature, the more natural X is. If you take the primordial essence of the mind to be relaxed, still, and vigilant ... the more relaxed/still/vigilant your mind is, the closer it is to its natural state.

[Webwanderer]

The nature / primordial essence of an eye is to see, an ear to hear, a mouth to speak,

Let's consider that.

Does an eye actually see? Or does it send bio/chemical/electrical signals to other regions of the brain?

Does an ear actually hear? Or does it send its own unique signals to other cooperative regions of the brain?

Does the mouth actually speak? Or does it form sounds as stimulated from certain regions of the brain intent on specified communication?

And what of the brain? Is it autonomous? Or does it function in conjunction with, and under the direction of, some controlling intelligent originator?

WW

[rachMiel]

Yes! The further down you drill into the nature of a thing, the more that nature unravels. On the gross level an eye is an organ that sees. Drill down and you have something that sends signals to the brain. Further down you have a retina that converts photon collisions into these signals. Further: cells with their own essential natures, molecules, atoms, elementary particles, etc. So yeah when I talk about nature/natural I’m talking from the level of consensus reality. At the level of absolute reality (Reality), nature/natural are meaningless.

And what of the brain? Is it autonomous? Or does it function in conjunction with, and under the direction of, some controlling intelligent originator?

A fascinating question. Of course I don’t know the answer. But of course I have a working theory. In a nutshell, everything is conscious, from quarks to rocks to humans to galaxies the the totality = all that is. And everything is interdependent. So the brain is conscious, as are all its neurons, neurochemicals, etc. As is the body that houses the brain, all objects in the world “external” to the body, etc. And all of these objects exist in a vast interdependent web, like Indra’s net.

[Enlightened2B]

In a nutshell, everything is conscious, from quarks to rocks to humans to galaxies the the totality = all that is. And everything is interdependent. So the brain is conscious, as are all its neurons, neurochemicals, etc. As is the body that houses the brain, all objects in the world “external” to the body, etc. And all of these objects exist in a vast interdependent web, like Indra’s net.

I've long suspected this myself. Not just because NDE'rs talk about it (which they do). But, there was something so limited and somewhat anthropomorphic about the idea of (what we consider) human consciousness to be 'all there is'. In other words, the way we perceive the world (through our human brains) is the only form of perception there is. This never jived with my direct experience as much as I tried to make it jive. After all, my own human direct sensory experience is inherently limited in what it can possibly perceive. A dog can hear frequencies well beyond my capacity. A dolphin can sense things in a completely different context than my human brain can comprehend. It's such a difficult subject matter to discuss in conversation. While, I value many non-dual teachers who try to emphasize the point about consciousness being all, much is left out of these discussions because of the failure to incorporate the larger view that (again what we call) consciousness is, in effect operating at every level of being. Yes, there is only One Consciousness, but it is only perceived in the way WE perceive it because of our brain, while a plant or a quark perceives it in ways we cannot even imagine. We can even go as far as to say there are groups of consciousness (think of your body systems like your digestive system or the autonomic nervous system which operates on its own).

But, there's more to it too, because I personally believe that we are each also existing/creating our own individual realities in a sense, while intertwining in each other's stories through a common consensus of sorts. Think parallel universes. Wild stuff