Is conscioussness an idiot?

[Loffe]

For me it feels kind of attribute-less, which is why I keep saying 'blank.' But if I had to describe it I'd say: calm and restful. Clear in the sense that I am ready for what presents itself. But not in the sense that I am paying intense attention to whatever happens to be happening. Make sense?

This state sounds like something I got stuck in for a month or so. Calm and peaceful, very little thought but at the same time not seeing through thought patterns when they did come.

Cool pic, dude!

Thanks!

[turiya]

(For some reason, I can't access the first post from Astan to click on and quote from, so I'll do this a different way:)

"There is a lot of talk about consciousness which is beyond body, feelings, thoughts, etc." -Astan

I don't think Consciousness is beyond body, feelings, thoughts, etc. Rather, Consciousness is the essential nature of those things (of all things). In other words, every thing owes its existence to Consciousness... Every thing arises in and is essentially made from Consciousness. Consciousness is not a separate entity that's apart from the body, feelings, thoughts, etc.

"I understand the idea that we are not a body and feelings..." -Astan

Yes, we are no more the body and the feelings, etc. than the sun is its rays... or the ocean is its waves... or the sky is its clouds...

"If I leave the body, the feeling, the memory and the thoughts, what will be left?" - Astan

You/Consciousness is left.
Just as, if you take away the rays, the sun is left... If you take away the waves, the ocean is left... If you take away the clouds, the sky is left.

But, I do get what you're saying. Who wants a continually cloudless sky? or a continually wave-less ocean? or a ray-less sun? How boring would that be, right?

Well, good news: it's not an either/or situation. It's both/and. Knowing yourself as Consciousness doesn't exclude the experience of the body, feelings, thoughts, and all the things of the world. This knowing includes the experience of all those things, of every thing!

Rupert Spira does a good job explaining "things" in this video:

https://youtu.be/HLMEgLjYJPI

[rachMiel]

This state sounds like something I got stuck in for a month or so. Calm and peaceful, very little thought but at the same time not seeing through thought patterns when they did come.

Sounds quite pleasant. Was it?

What do you mean by 'not seeing through thought patterns when they come?' Can you give an example?

[Loffe]

Sounds quite pleasant. Was it?

What do you mean by 'not seeing through thought patterns when they come?' Can you give an example?

It was pleasant but lacking clarity.
I try to watch what's going on in my mind constantly. Self-images, unnecessary thoughts about future or past, thoughts from painbody. Usually, I recognize old ones right when they arise and newly recognized right after arising or a couple minutes later. Being in this somewhat numb state reduced alertness.
For example "teacher" pattern - mind starts an imaginary conversation in the head with somebody and I'm in teacher role with unlimited knowledge.

[rachMiel]

It was pleasant but lacking clarity.

Gotcha.

I try to watch what's going on in my mind constantly. Self-images, unnecessary thoughts about future or past, thoughts from painbody.

Sounds exhausting! Is it enjoyable for you? What benefits does it bring?

[Loffe]

Sounds exhausting! Is it enjoyable for you? What benefits does it bring?

It's not exhausting rather opposite. Thinking is exhausting, being trapped in the same thoughts day after day, year after year. In some sense building a prison for self and living there without realizing that door is actually unlocked. Heavy to push but unlocked.
At the beginning of practice, there was I had to use willpower to form it into a habit and this was maybe exhausting but later when a sense of I moved inwards, it became more effortless. Well not totally effortless, some discipline stays and has to be or so I feel.
When I have an active mind movement its usually egoic patterns and this is not so pleasant when it happens. But when I see clearly through pattern it feels pleasant. Very often I have good laughs about how ridiculous they are. For example one day I caught ego imagining talking to grey aliens about presence and of course ego was totally enlightened and all-knowing. How stupid is that? Ego doesn't care, for it is important to be better, higher, more. I had to sit down for a minute because of laughing.
Neutral and/or creative thoughts seem to be more pleasant but those are relatively new to me so yeah, don't know.

[rachMiel]

Exhausting at the beginning, when the patterns of observation are taking root, and then effortless-feeling once they've been ingrained. That makes sense, we are after all deeply conditioned beings ... and conditioning has its pros and cons, right?

It sounds like you've found a joyful and sane-making way to live, congratulations! Laughter is, I think, a very good sign ...

Watch out for those aliens! I saw some on tv last night, and they were very unfriendly.

[Loffe]

Exhausting at the beginning, when the patterns of observation are taking root, and then effortless-feeling once they've been ingrained. That makes sense, we are after all deeply conditioned beings ... and conditioning has its pros and cons, right?

My experience is to form habits that are generating presence. Observing thinker, inner body feeling, breathing. Then the illusion of ego/conditioned mind starts to dissolve or identification with it weakens. Then a sense of self moves inward, before body and thinker where is spaciousness, peace. From there it's effortless to see thoughts because of being before them. Is that makes sense?
So we could say that the conditioned mind has its pros and cons. Pro - it can be tricked to form habits what are eventually dissolving ego itself. Con - it tries to identify with anything, even observing thoughts and this becomes an obstacle.
In larger perspective ego is an illusion. If we don't give full attention to our thoughts then there is no ego anymore.

[rachMiel]

Exhausting at the beginning, when the patterns of observation are taking root, and then effortless-feeling once they've been ingrained. That makes sense, we are after all deeply conditioned beings ... and conditioning has its pros and cons, right?

My experience is to form habits that are generating presence. Observing thinker, inner body feeling, breathing. Then the illusion of ego/conditioned mind starts to dissolve or identification with it weakens. Then a sense of self moves inward, before body and thinker where is spaciousness, peace. From there it's effortless to see thoughts because of being before them. Is that makes sense?

I think so, yes. In theory. Does it work this way for you in practice, in your actual moment-to-moment life? That would mean to me that it truly makes sense, if it's right for you both theoretically and actually.

So we could say that the conditioned mind has its pros and cons. Pro - it can be tricked to form habits what are eventually dissolving ego itself. Con - it tries to identify with anything, even observing thoughts and this becomes an obstacle.

Again, sounds right to me. I think you have it 'figured out' Loffe ... next on the agenda is to assimilate it, be(come) it, right?

In larger perspective ego is an illusion. If we don't give full attention to our thoughts then there is no ego anymore.

I agree that ego is, from a certain perspective, an illusion. But not from all perspectives. From the point of view of consensus reality the ego-I-construct is very real, the real-est thing of all. Most people spend their entire lifetimes devoting 99% of their thought/energy to their ego.

As for the ego disappearing when thought is not attended to ... I see it a bit differently. Conscious ego might diminish or even disappear when thought is quiet. But I'm a big believer in the power of the unconscious mind, so imo unconscious ego might be fully active when conscious ego is not. And if you accept the model of the unconscious mind as the 90% of the iceberg that is below the surface of the water, that's alotta unconscious ego!

So how do you get at that submerged part of the consciousness iceberg, how do you quiet the monkeys that monkey around out of sight/sound?

[Loffe]

My experience is to form habits that are generating presence. Observing thinker, inner body feeling, breathing. Then the illusion of ego/conditioned mind starts to dissolve or identification with it weakens. Then a sense of self moves inward, before body and thinker where is spaciousness, peace. From there it's effortless to see thoughts because of being before them. Is that makes sense?

I think so, yes. In theory. Does it work this way for you in practice, in your actual moment-to-moment life? That would mean to me that it truly makes sense, if it's right for you both theoretically and actually.

Yes, this worked for me as I described above. Didn't plan this tho, just tried to be in presence.

So we could say that the conditioned mind has its pros and cons. Pro - it can be tricked to form habits what are eventually dissolving ego itself. Con - it tries to identify with anything, even observing thoughts and this becomes an obstacle.

Again, sounds right to me. I think you have it 'figured out' Loffe ... next on the agenda is to assimilate it, be(come) it, right?

Actually, don't have an agenda. I just allow new states of consciousness and continue observing. And who knows where this leads. We'll see.

In larger perspective ego is an illusion. If we don't give full attention to our thoughts then there is no ego anymore.

I agree that ego is, from a certain perspective, an illusion. But not from all perspectives. From the point of view of consensus reality the ego-I-construct is very real, the real-est thing of all. Most people spend their entire lifetimes devoting 99% of their thought/energy to their ego.

As for the ego disappearing when thought is not attended to ... I see it a bit differently. Conscious ego might diminish or even disappear when thought is quiet. But I'm a big believer in the power of the unconscious mind, so imo unconscious ego might be fully active when conscious ego is not. And if you accept the model of the unconscious mind as the 90% of the iceberg that is below the surface of the water, that's alotta unconscious ego!

So how do you get at that submerged part of the consciousness iceberg, how do you quiet the monkeys that monkey around out of sight/sound?

I don't have an answer. If term subconscious points to a hidden part of mind then one becomes aware of that also, when presence grows.

[rachMiel]

All good, you seem in a really healthy <and quite exciting, psychonautically speaking> place. Happy journeys!

[smiileyjen101]

Rach said: I've been experimenting with pretty much exactly what you describe. I'd been reading about AI's and thought "I wonder what it would feel like to *be* an AI?" So I dropped everything, physical and mental, except that which I needed to perform the tasks of the moment: drive home from work, shop in a supermarket, take a walk

This is not reality Rach - you were playing a game of 'turn it down', and that was based on a conscious (ego-based) means to an end, choice.

People who confuse their 'self' with their life situation - momentarily or to the point of an identifiable personality, do the same thing.

That's totally different to being consciousness. Consciousness has no questions or limitations, it just is. ... there are no nouns or adjectives, just a totality of all things in equilibrium.

I am brought back to the Ferez poem: I am the hole in the flute through which the Christ breath flows, listen to the music.

But while 'listen' is a limiting verb, maybe I'd change that - be (in equilibrium with) the music.
then you are fullness of all things, not empty of things.

[rachMiel]

Hi jen.

I’m in a different headspace than I was the last time we spoke. I’m interested in experiencing different states of consciousness, experimenting in the Lab of Self. I find the being-an-AI state fascinating. As for reality, I figure it can take care of itself.