Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:29 pm

jukai wrote:
NuanceOfSuchness wrote:Onceler, I'm trying to send you a private message but its not going through.
Is the message showing up in the Outbox and staying there ? If so, that simply means that the recipient has not read it yet and you're fine (it will show as sent when the recipient reads it).

It is a bit confusing, I know.
It reports back 'user not found' so perhaps his ego has died and he's become fully awakened. That's just one possible scenorio plucked from the millions though.

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jukai
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by jukai » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:41 am

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
jukai wrote:
NuanceOfSuchness wrote:Onceler, I'm trying to send you a private message but its not going through.
Is the message showing up in the Outbox and staying there ? If so, that simply means that the recipient has not read it yet and you're fine (it will show as sent when the recipient reads it).

It is a bit confusing, I know.
It reports back 'user not found' so perhaps his ego has died and he's become fully awakened. That's just one possible scenorio plucked from the millions though.
:lol: :mrgreen:

Did you type his name manually instead of using the username auto-complete feature ? Remember that usernames are case-sensitive. "onceler" will result in "user not found". You want to make sure it is typed correctly as "Onceler".

In fact, if you start typing his name as "Onc" in the recipient field, it will probably display a list of names among which Onceler will show up, and you can simply select it, which will ensure correctness.

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:57 am

Thanks! You were correct. I needed to type his name instead of adding it from the list. :wink:

PureLand
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by PureLand » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:34 pm

jukai wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:20 am

I was simply saying I don't believe that he awakened overnight, because I don't think such an experience falls within the domain of human experience (i.e. it is not possible for humans to experience such a thing). And, I offered one possible reason why he would claim such an experience - i.e., to sell his books.

As for being open-minded, in some cases, that is the best approach. In other cases, it's a waste of time. I don't want to be open minded about 2 + 2 = 5, because I'm quite certain (for practical purposes) that 2 + 2 = 4, so I assume that and move on. And similarly, I'm certain that no human being's ego can completely vanish overnight. It is a gradual process that I don't think ever really gets completed; we awaken (and relapse), in waves, till the day we experience physical death.

Now, if you'd like me to elaborate on why I don't believe in sudden awakening, I'm happy to do so, but I don't think it is needed nor is it going to be helpful.

Do I think Eckhart is a crook ? Absolutely not.

Do I think Eckhart is incredibly wise and has greatly helped millions on the planet, including me ? Absolutely. Or else, I wouldn't be on this site.

Am I going to believe anything and everything Eckhart says, because he is a "spiritual teacher" ? Absolutely not. I like to think for and experience things myself.
Overnight awakening is possible but it's a very rare event. I think in the past it was more frequent for that experience because people's pain-body was lighter. Eckhart had a heavy pain body but I think his being was ready for this experience. Maybe Eckhart was a spiritual practitioner in his previous lives and he planted the seeds of awakening before he was born to his last life-time. And one night it happened. For the overwhelming majority of the spiritual practitioners, yes there is no other way for us than gradual awakening. It's painful, it's difficult. But there is no other way.

As for not believing spiritual teachers or spiritual teachings all the time, I agree with you. Even If the spiritual teacher is a greatly enlightened, pure, heavenly being, they sometimes choose to say things what you have to hear and not the truth. This is true for the spiritual teachings. For example Buddhism. Buddhism is a great source for spiritual knowledge(I also get benefit from them) but also there is a lot of things in Buddhism that absolutely don't represent the truth. I don't think that Buddhism is mostly distorted by non-spiritual people, but the awakened masters of Buddhism choosed to write their own stories to get people's attention to Buddhism and meditation. These things are my critisism for spiritual masters and traditions, but I am still gladful for them that they are liberating our conscioussness from the chains of the mind. And they are leading us to permanent peace, happiness and liberation from having to come to this dense, slow physical world again and again.

Dcdc
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by Dcdc » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:34 pm

Good morning, my friends.

I don't want to be disrespectful - and I know you know that, hehehehe -, but, in order to discuss about what was said in that topic, I'm going to say what I (or my ego, hehehehe) think about it.

I think that "enlightenment" is a word in english-language that, in our context, is used to describe an "idea" (as all the words and languages as well). Usually that word is an idea similar to a "light switch" thing, or similar to "cross some line" involving presence/non-dualism. So, it's also a form, a creation of mind, and can generates attachment.

In my (or my ego's) opinion - and with all the respect -, it is false that some day (independently if was a long progress or was an overnight thing) a person just "wokes" and, after that, that person stays in that stage without coming back. Even if the person is indeed a great master, for me, this is just another story.

I guess we can use the word enlightenment to refer to a stage where the person pass a long of his/her time in the present moment; but will never be something that occurs 100% of her/his time. It's not, in my opinion, a light switch. In fact, if I'm not wrong, some zen teacher in the past said that if someone pass more than 50% of his moments of perception in the present moment, that person is enlightenment.

Language and words are forms. So, even masters as Tolle (that I admire so much, by the way) can, sometimes, not being present. Although a lot of them can be present for long time - and that's wonderful! -, I think there is a lot of "romantic creations/interpretions" about this. Ironically we create concepts about something that shows to the limits about concepts, hehehehe.

For me, there is no such thing as "now I crossed some line and I'm enlightenment." I think we can be enlightenment every moment if we are present, and we can't be enlightenment every moment if we are not present.

This path is wonderul, beautiful and magic by his own. We don't have to create stories about what it is. For me, we just have to drop everything (including concepts and ideas about this) and be here and now. :-)

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Christa-303
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by Christa-303 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:44 am

I was glad to see this topic.

In the past week I listened to this youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzfYTiKw6Bs&t=984s, in which Tolle talks about his experience of 'getting enlightened', and about the years after that when he listened to enlightened people and tried to put together a way to present his teachings.

What struck me is that while Tolle himself had a 'lightning experience' - enlightenment in a flash, caused by the'crushing' experience of depression and anxiety - he is teaching people to get enlightened in a gradual way by diminishing the impact of the thinking mind. This made me wonder. It seems contradictory to me.

I need to add that I do believe that someone can become 'enlightened' overnight, and that the ego can disappear under the pressure of anxiety and fear. It just struck me that while he had this spontaneous experience, he teaches others to get there gradually. I am not sure if it works that way...? I mean you cannot get 'what he has' (grin) using his instructions. You would not get 'sudden enlightenment' but 'gradual enlightenments' (hopefully).

I read Tolle's first two books quite a few years ago. I did not recall, when I picked them up again recently, that he was actually talking about, and even 'promising' (in a way) enlightenment. Also his definition of enlightenment that I just re-read in The Power of Now is a rather limited one compared to that of other teachings.
In my mind (in my recollection) The Power of Now and A New Earth were very much about some kind of mindfulness, I seem to have completely forgotten that Tolle speaks of enlightenment and considers himself to be enlightened (that's another thing that struck me: he himself seems to have concluded, based on his study and contact with other 'enlightened' teachers, that he had an enlightenment experience. But I suppose most 'enlightened beings' are self-declared - or maybe they get declared enlightened by followers. Sadly there is no federacy to verify 'enlightenment claims' is there? :)

Listening to recent video's of Tolle I have an impression (but, who am I) that he indeed was 'quite enlightened' in the past and somehow that strength of 'being present' seems to have faded. Maybe succes got to him. Who is to say?
I still feel inspired reading the two books I mentioned.

I am not sure just what point I want to make, probably not wanting to make a point but express my thoughts to try to understand the meaning of things.

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:57 am

Christa-303 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:44 am
I was glad to see this topic.

In the past week I listened to this youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzfYTiKw6Bs&t=984s, in which Tolle talks about his experience of 'getting enlightened', and about the years after that when he listened to enlightened people and tried to put together a way to present his teachings.
Hi Christa. From a Buddhist perspective one is considered partially enlightened once you have reached what is called stream-entry. This is the first of four points and as one reaches each point more of the conceited self falls away. Upon reaching each of these points they are commonly signified by a momentary event like the one that Eckhart describes in the first part of his book, The Power of Now. However, all four points can collapse simultaneously or the first two or three.

It is very common that if a person has one of these shifts that they will proclaim enlightenment and this is true but it's only part of the story. One is still conceited and the mind likes to claim its object of being enlightened. This is ignorance or not seeing (again).

When you reach the higher part of stream entry one is bestowed with knowledge of other peoples sufferings and you can see what it is they need to do to reduce that suffering via gradual methods. The skill here is weaving that knowledge into an intelligible format for easy consumption. It's very tricky to teach people about the vacancy of mind using name and form so one calls upon wisdom to do this.

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Christa-303
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by Christa-303 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:45 pm

Thank you for your reply, NuanceOfSuchness. That is interesting what you wrote about the points. Could you mention maybe a site / source of information where I can learn more about this?

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:39 pm

Christa-303 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:45 pm
Thank you for your reply, NuanceOfSuchness. That is interesting what you wrote about the points. Could you mention maybe a site / source of information where I can learn more about this?
Yes, of course but try not to get too caught in the words that describe this process. The direct personal experience is more important. Here is a very basic outline and a link below for further reading:

The first part is called Sotāpanna when one sees through the illusion of their self-concept. One realises that maintaining this facade was a complete falsehood; a pretence.

The second is Sakadāgāmī. Here more of the conceited self falls away and more of the true vision of things are revealed.

Anāgāmin - again more of the self-concept is diminished and one sees a yet more clearer picture of the world.

Upon reaching Arahant one has been released from all of their psychological angst. It is the complete end of suffering.

http://thirdmonk.net/knowledge/4-stages ... dhist.html

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:02 pm

Dcs wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:34 pm

For me, there is no such thing as "now I crossed some line and I'm enlightenment." I think we can be enlightenment every moment if we are present, and we can't be enlightenment every moment if we are not present.
Hi Dcs. Thank you for your input. From my personal experience there are indeed lines that one crosses from which you can never fall back from. When this happens certain types of difficult thoughts no longer arise. Because those thoughts no longer arise one can no longer produce the corresponding type of action thus the resultant effect of that action never again occurs (cause and effect or karma). Happiness and contentment follows.

It's impossible for me to convince you of anything. You'd have to find this out for yourself.

Dcdc
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by Dcdc » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:14 pm

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:02 pm
Dcs wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:34 pm

For me, there is no such thing as "now I crossed some line and I'm enlightenment." I think we can be enlightenment every moment if we are present, and we can't be enlightenment every moment if we are not present.
Hi Dcs. Thank you for your input. From my personal experience there are indeed lines that one crosses from which you can never fall back from. When this happens certain types of difficult thoughts no longer arise. Because those thoughts no longer arise one can no longer produce the corresponding type of action thus the resultant effect of that action never again occurs (cause and effect or karma). Happiness and contentment follows.

It's impossible for me to convince you of anything. You'd have to find this out for yourself.
Good morning, my friend.

I (respectfully) don't have the same opinion that you. And that's ok, of course. :- )

I understand what you are saying and I agree that I can be wrong. But, in my opinion, these concepts about enlightenment are just another human's ideas, forms, and from my point of view they are just another stories that can generate attachment.

I do agree that the practice can lead the person to better "stages", and the person will become more and more acquainted with living in the present moment. Then, it is reasonable to conclude that the more one practices, the smaller and smaller will be the likelihood of certain kinds of thoughts arise. And if the person takes the practice really seriously, I agree that it will be possible that these thoughts no longer arise at all, and that person will live without "comming back". But, from my point of view, this occurs because the person is more and more used to live in the present moment, not because he/she crossed some line that is literally impossible to come back.

In the book "Science of meditation" (Davidson, Goleman, 2017), among a lot of other interesting points, the authors presented several experiments (using the maximum degree of methodological rigor) that were applied to monks who meditated very seriously for dozens of years. They literally proved that these monks indeed have different brains (they are happier and calmer, and their brain react only to what is actually happening, without anticipating pains and events etc). According to the results of the experiments, this happened due to a feature of our brain called "neuroplasticity", which basically relates to the ability of our brain to change its functioning due to repetition. As they trained a lot living in the present moment, their brains have changed to work that way. However, it is proven that neuroplasticity is a characteristic that accompanies us to death. Therefore, if any of these monks start trainning to live in the past/future, within their minds, after a long time of repetition they will have again the same mind they had before.

Again, it's just my (or my ego's, hehehehe) opinion, and I can be wrong, but for me it's better to drop absolutely every concept about enlightenment and just bring ourselves to the present moment the most we can. Nothing is absolutely permanent and literally impossible to transform itself - nor the enlightenment.

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:40 am

Dcs wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:34 pm

for me it's better to drop absolutely every concept about enlightenment and just bring ourselves to the present moment the most we can.
Thank you for your reply. Having no concept of enlightenment will hold you in good stead. I would say it's the mainstay of the process.

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