Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

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Jonski
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Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Jonski » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:26 pm

I have been seeking the deeper 'truth' that Eckhart points to, off and on, for over a decade. However, when I do manage to create 'gaps between my thoughts' by meditation or body awareness, I get no sense of my 'incredible depth' which Eckhart describes as being hugely more significant than my shallow human form identity.
Instead, in the absence of thinking, I just feel like a 'video recorder', simply recording sight and sound, without any thoughts endowing those sounds and images with meaning and significance.
So, instead of feeling much more that my shallow ego-created human identity, as Eckhart describes, I rather feel that I have been relegated to the status of a device for recording sights and sounds and other sense perceptions. In fact, it feels way more shallow and insignificant than being a normal human being. This is exactly the opposite of what I was expecting...

Eckhart seems to be saying that when we stop the constant thinking, something much bigger should just flow into consciousness, but this does not happen for me.

Can anyone please help me to understand why I'm not at all sensing in any way the incredible ocean of 'Being', loaded with depth, and significance, and my deeper identity outside of 'Form'?

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Sighclone
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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Sighclone » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:45 pm

Jonski -

What an interesting question. That was not my experience, so I can only speculate. A few nondual teachers refer to The Witness as a stage in development. If your experience is what they would define as The Witness, okay - but I have no suggestions how one "gets past" that. Possibly ETs level of stress and depression was so great that even the "recorder" was a great relief. For me, it was an "aha" moment, and a culmination of 35 years of TM - definitely a big shift...not "permanent" at first, and I can still get hooked into frustrations and internal narrative for short periods. But there is a radiance, a sense of Unity Awareness that is always pleasant and comforting, if not pure joy.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by rachMiel » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:34 pm

Jonski wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:26 pm
Instead, in the absence of thinking, I just feel like a 'video recorder', simply recording sight and sound, without any thoughts endowing those sounds and images with meaning and significance.
When I first started working with gaps between thoughts I didn't even feel like a recorder. During each gap, I froze into a kind of dumbfounded blankness, like a deer in headlights. <This still happens sometimes.> So you're one step ahead of me! ;-)
Can anyone please help me to understand why I'm not at all sensing in any way the incredible ocean of 'Being', loaded with depth, and significance, and my deeper identity outside of 'Form'?
You're looking too hard for fireworks of bliss? Imo there is great danger in reading 'enlightened' people's accounts of their extraordinary experiences. One fork of the danger is that your imagination fools you into thinking you are experiencing similar extraordinariness when you're just playing make-believe. The other fork is that you grow disappointed and frustrated and self-castigating and even perhaps nihilistic, because you are not experiencing what the authors you read claim they experienced.

You might try simply relaxing and enjoying life, and letting IT come to you on its own terms, in its own time? (I know, easier said than done!)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Dcdc
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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Dcdc » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:53 pm

From my point of view, this is happening because you are comparing the experience you are having with the experience you think that should be having.

As some of you already know, I defend we should just drop absolutly every concept about enlightened we have in our minds, and just bring ourselves to the present moment the most we can. Your experience is similiar to a video recorder? Let it be. Nothing in this world is absolutly permanent; and your experience isn't either.

As Mingyur Rinpoche said: after you are present, nothing changes, but, at the same time, everything changes. This is not a magical path/practice - at least not more magical than the world already is. :- )

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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by SputnikSweetheart » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:59 am

Hello Jonski,

I’m assuming here that you did not come to ET/mindfulness meditation practice thinking it will not work, thinking we are all just a collection of atoms moving around aimlessly in a pretty ruthless Universe. And that now you are happy the experiment has indeed failed and you can move on with your life. I am instead assuming you were honest in your search and gave the teachings in ET’s book a fair and honest attempt. But after years of practice, something is off…

Maybe it’s time to ask yourself what drew you in the practice in the first place. Why keep doing it for several years? Did any of the things Eckhart has said ring true?

Investigate! I am certain the answer lies within you.

Here’s the thing:
You might not have found a sense of Oneness with the Universe, or a sense of purpose, or some extraordinary spiritual truth through pursuing your meditation practice. However, from what I can tell from your post, you possess 2 very important qualities: self-awareness and honesty.

Use these important tools moving forward to inquire what draws you to the practice and what has motivated you.

****

I can only add two more pieces of advice.

I’ve been thinking recently that it’s possible that the path Eckhart has laid out in PON is only one of many to reach the Truth of Oneness and non-duality. Every person might resonate better with a different path, but we all meet at the Truth. Perhaps it’s time to explore other teachers and/or books that could resonate with you. For example, I always found A Course in Miracles quite interesting, truthful, but with a different flavor than Power of Now.

A second suggestion is to seriously consider magic mushrooms. I know at least a few people that have had their first spiritual experience by trying them. It set them on a long spiritual journey that they are on even today, and even after they have stopped using them. This may be the catalyst you need to connect your brain somehow with the Being/Silence/Oneness. I personally consider these mushrooms to be a gift left by the Gods to us so that we can have a point of access to Divinity. If you have doubts on this, I recommend reading the recent NYT bestseller “How To Change Your Mind” by Michael Pollan, who talks extensively about the use of psilocybin.

Good luck!
“Such certainty is beautiful, but uncertainty is more beautiful still”

Jonski
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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Jonski » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:37 pm

Thanks for the replies, it is reassuring to know that others have found something significant and important through their own endeavours. Sounds likely that I just haven't spent enough time in true meditation to get beyond this stage. My biggest fear has been that there really isn't anything real to be discovered and that it's all wishful thinking because humans can't accept that life may be ultimately meaningless, there being in fact no deeper truth to be discovered.

The idea about using magic mushrooms as a catalyst to get to a deeper level had crossed my mind, but I remain nervous about flashbacks, paranoia etc...etc.. But maybe I need to just experiment with low doses and see how it goes.

I feel that people describing the' higher level' of consciousness to someone who has never experienced it, is like describing colour to someone who has always been blind. You need at least a hint of of it to understand what they are talking about, and to inspire you to keep searching for it.

Thanks again to all.

Jonski
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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Jonski » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:27 am

I'll also take a look at A Course in Miracles. :)

Dcdc
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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Dcdc » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:58 pm

Jonski wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:37 pm
Thanks for the replies, it is reassuring to know that others have found something significant and important through their own endeavours. Sounds likely that I just haven't spent enough time in true meditation to get beyond this stage. My biggest fear has been that there really isn't anything real to be discovered and that it's all wishful thinking because humans can't accept that life may be ultimately meaningless, there being in fact no deeper truth to be discovered.

The idea about using magic mushrooms as a catalyst to get to a deeper level had crossed my mind, but I remain nervous about flashbacks, paranoia etc...etc.. But maybe I need to just experiment with low doses and see how it goes.

I feel that people describing the' higher level' of consciousness to someone who has never experienced it, is like describing colour to someone who has always been blind. You need at least a hint of of it to understand what they are talking about, and to inspire you to keep searching for it.

Thanks again to all.
I use marijuana a lot of times and mushrooms sometimes, but, in my opinion, you have to understand that these kind of activities are, at best,
entertainment activities. It is just simple chemistry: these substances will temporarily change the chemistry of your mind so that the world will manifest to you temporarily in a different way. Only that. From time to time we have interesting experiences and insights when we are high, but I repeat: there is nothing magical or transcendental and has no relation to the present moment. It's just a temporarily entertainment.

In fact, as I'm very used to bring myself to the present moment, I try my best to do be present even when I'm high. I can manage to do this a lot of times, but without a doubt it is much harder to bring yourself into the present moment when you are stoned than when you are normal. It's like working out by putting on bigger weights. I find it interesting sometimes because I can exercise the practice with bigger difficulty, but it does not help anything to the practice. And the problem is: if the person is in an unstable and distressed state of mind, it may be that the use of these substances can create an even greater illusion in the person's mind. Caution, all you'll see are just illusions and have no relation to a deeper level.

I advise you to drop all your conclusions, expectations, thoughts your mind may have about what it is like to live in the present moment, and then proceed to bring yourself into the present moment as much as possible with seriousness and discipline. Take practice seriously, and experience for yourself. You are not separate from anything actually, and, because of that, you will never encounter the "answer", because the answer isn't separate from you. The "answer" is always avaible here and now. Follow your breath, make every move with awareness and let you live the real world.
Last edited by Dcdc on Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:10 pm

Jonski, I suggest that you look at the context of 'meaning' and how that applied reference directly affects experience. A key element that gives those 'recorded' events and conditions of our lives the quality that they hold for us is the meaning we apply to them. If events and conditions are just information, and we can get quiet enough to see that fundamentally, then it becomes possible to choose the meaning we hold that gives them their emotional power. At its core is how we divide up right vs wrong, although there is a whole lot of subtlety to it. Gaining clarity on how this works is infinitely valuable.

Emotional power is inherently a double edge sword, and it can be life enhancing, or it can be the source of a lot of pain. We have learned to apply certain meanings to events and condition through the environment we grew up in. Most of it is an entrained and conditioned response. Getting to that neutral state of consciousness through meditation and quieting the mind brings the opportunity to see through the conditioned meanings and choose something more to our liking.

I don't believe that staying in neutral is the best course for living a fun and enjoyable life. It remains however, a valuable skill set to be familiar with that clear state, and how things work, when it comes to having more control over how we experience life. Clear recognition of this fundamental process can be quite a consciousness expanding experience.

WW

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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by PureLand » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:58 pm


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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by turiya » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:45 am

Great link, Pureland :D

Jonski,

Here's a video by Rupert Spira that might also be of some help:

https://youtu.be/8mWq4OjkZ6I
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Sighclone » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:50 pm

Thanks Pureland and Turiya!
In 2007, ET was on a radio program with Oprah and made the following statement that brought me up short: "You are the present moment." This is essentially his message in Pureland's link. It's pretty scary, of course..."I'm not 'Andy'...I'm "the present moment???" What is that all about??? Which brings up two things for me: 1) discovery of and fully occupying "the present moment" was a new concept for me until it was a powerful first experience in 2008 - after 34 years of TM!...and 2) it is exactly this paradox that is a recurring theme on this forum and many other places: Our identity as "little me, Andy" vs. some cosmic 'discovery' of Presence/Being/Source as my 'real' identity. It is a both/and paradox, not an either/or paradox that slowly resolves after the first Glimpse, which arrives, as ET mentions in the clip, as a gift of Grace.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by PureLand » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:38 pm

Great points Sighclone. The famous saying describes the reality as "Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form." The form is the temporary manifestation of the real(presence/being) which is the timeless dimension that is the present moment itself. If a person have glimpse of the ultimate reality, he or she gradually becomes more transparent to the divine dimension and eventually comes to a point where the divine reality shines through this person all the time. That is grace, peace, contentment, happiness, true freedom and liberation.

turiya thank you for the link. It is very clear that Rupert Spira(just like Eckhart) is liberated from the core of the painbody(which is the origin of the human suffering) long time ago and he is deeply and permanently grounded in presence. It is really a joy to see great spiritual teachers like Eckhart, Rupert who are helping some people to find their true nature.

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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Sighclone » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:42 am

Jonski -
Can anyone please help me to understand why I'm not at all sensing in any way the incredible ocean of 'Being', loaded with depth, and significance, and my deeper identity outside of 'Form'?
When you are in this witnessing state that is kind of boring or meaningless to you, try one of ETs "inner body awareness" exercises. Direct your energy to witnessing your inner body...spend a few minutes there. Be as "passive" as you can...let your body speak to you. Rest in that stillness, be present there. Report back...

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Why no sublime sense of Depth and Being?

Post by Alicia » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:16 pm

Jonski I really get this, and I think you've had lots of helpful points. I'm not sure I can contribute much except to say that I found the same for a long time but eventually the meditation deepened and so did the experience. I wouldn't say I experience bliss as such but a deep sense of inner peace. But it took me a while because I found it difficult to let go of the thoughts during meditation. Even when I was counting breaths and being with my body and whatnot, I was still 'thinking' and invested in the thinking. Looking back, I was kind of bored. It took me a while to be with the witness rather than in the thinking. once that shift occurred, I experienced more peace. I'm not saying this will or won't work for you, but if this reasonates with you then do keep meditating and trusting the peace is there beyond the boredom or what else you feel.

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