Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

[Fore]

If your practice is simply spiritual experience, then by all means continue with drug use, alcohol, or whatever gives you a thrill.

Your efforts to demean an ancient practice is curious, when I simply asked you how do you explain it's historic use in religious and spiritual practices around the world - which you avoided answering. I'm certainly not advocating for or against. That's an individual choice that should be made carefully and with purpose.

Participants are using such things to give rise to momentary happiness, but ultimately when their effects and the experience wears off they are left grasping and clinging and craving for more.
There is no salvation for these individuals, they are adding to the story.

You can't possibly know this as it relates to every individual on the planet and simply reveals your lack of knowledge on the subject. Do you have personal experience? A close friend or family member who became addicted to something? And what salvation are you talking about? Saved from what?

WW

I did answer your question, those ancient practices that involve drugs are watered down and have lost view of what their originator was pointing towards.
The (singular) practice cannot be dependant an anything added to you, as soon as you add you have lost the practice.
In other words they are practicing something else.

[alchemizt]

Its not like what you think. Life is very mysterious and brings you experiences and tools which can catalyse a deepening of presence in you. These experiences and tools come in many forms. While were all on the same path of awakening, were all on our own unique path. The way your spiritual journey unfolds is unique to you. Your path doesn't involve ayahuasca, I can't explain much about it to you all I can say is it is very mysterious, its beyond anything I could ever understand with my mind, its beyond any of the labels you put on it. When you experience it, you can see that this isn't something that was forced, this is something you were called to, the calling coming from somewhere deep, the ideas of cause and effect don't hold so much weight. I see it like your inner self attracts or guides you to certain conditions or experiences that help you to remember the truth of who you are.

What you are practicing is craving when taking drugs, you are experiencing something which you wish to repeat, be it pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. All of this experiences are contained within your past stock of karma, you do not need to add to this with new exciting drug induced experiences. You do not need drugs to gain the depth of focus and concentration you experienced on drugs, but it may require retreating for some time inwards. Placing your awareness within the body repeatedly, this is difficult but it is the only way to see clearly. Using anything to artificially create an experience of some such or another is going in the opposite direction. You are strengthening your craving and your future suffering.
Sorry but there is no path out of suffering that involves drugs no matter how much you enjoy them. They are to be let go of in order to gain the stability of mind required to begin self examination.

Drinking ayahuasca isn't anymore practicing craving than going to a Vipassana retreat. I'm not gonna try and explain it to you, all I'll say is this is something you don't understand, your post is like an explanation of meditation written by someone who has never meditated.

[Fore]

Drinking ayahuasca isn't anymore practicing craving than going to a Vipassana retreat. I'm not gonna try and explain it to you, all I'll say is this is something you don't understand, your post is like an explanation of meditation written by someone who has never meditated.

I’m very open to the discussion of this subject, but if your not comfortable with some direct input then I suggest you simply disregard my posts.
Taking drugs and going to a Vipassana centre can both be used for the purpose of the ego.
My point is that those who have reached the paths end, know how to get to the “destination”.
If a Vipassana centre or use of a drug was mandatory for this purpose then the final destination can only be reached by a select few who have these means.
Through evolution you are born human, which means that you have physical and mental tools necessary to perform the task of self awareness or awareness of awareness.
Anything added to this can only add to the story of you and is simply one more thing for the ego to cling to. It is travelling in the opposite direction.
The drug induced experiences are of no importance, you are merely summoning experience from a range of vibratory realms. Some of which are higher realms which are very pleasant and come with higher levels of concentration and focus which you may or may not have experienced before.
The practice of observing how mind reacts to these experience and the effects this has on body is important, but you don’t need any drug or meditation centre to do this you just need to pay attention to the mundane experiences which present from one moment to the next.
A meditation centre can be helpful as a place to learn how to do this as there is no distraction, it is a bubble with minimal distraction to learn and practice continuity of awareness. It is not needed though, you can do this without it.
If you want to keep taking drugs it’s your choice but it is not helpful or necessary.

[PureLand]

What are your thoughts on the use of psychedelics as tools for presence?

I cannot speak for all those since, I am limited to mushrooms and psilocybin. IMHO I can say, I notice a significant degree of presence and or peeling away of layers of ego. My last experience was pretty intense. My first experience, it felt like I went through a portal of just awe and gratitude. I found everything funny and everything was just brighter.

My last experience, I couldn't even meditate or dare try to and when I attempted to, I just tripped out. I tried to pray to shake myself out of the bad trip but, I couldn't which made me trip more. A lot of auditory and visual hallucinations. I mistakenly thought the thoughts in my head were someone having a conversation with me which tripped me out some more. My head sounded like a stadium at a soccer or football game. My hallway felt hollow and I was feeling sick. I didn't eat anything so, I vomited a bit. There was so much sensory input all at once and at one point, it felt like I was having a psychosis. Like I ripped a black hole into my internal and external reality and the lines between the two were merging.

I think I really over did it there but, I think a mild dose, I would have enjoyed a lot more. I was also dealing with politics and a lot of negativity so, I think that state did not help me.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on psychedelics as a tool for presence? Its pretty powerfyl. I wanted to try ayahuasca but, after my last mushroom trip, I don't think I am ready and I am unsure I ever will be. I will say, there is an absolute dissolving of ego so, petty shit is peeled away layer by layer. Ideally, being a good place in your life is smarter then in a negative state of mind.

I 100% disagree with those who thinks that ayahuasca and related things are helpful to presence. If you used them just few times it's ok(I did it few times in the past too). I know that a guru said that it can lead people to the complete opposite direction and can mess with people's minds. That being said, we don't have control over other people's decisions and people can decide to do whatever they want.

Eckhart and some other spiritual teachers and gurus don't want to say that "don't use these substances" etc. because they know that many-many people in the world use these things and it's even widespread among the meditators/spiritual people/presence practitioners.

So my advice to the people is that always trust your own experience in spirituality. Don't believe me or others but just practise more and more presence in daily life. I believe that most of the people who really practise presence deeply in daily life would naturally stay away from these things even without experiencing them once. Ofcourse there is no black and white in spiritual life so some people(who are deeply practising meditation/presence) can still time to time want to experience these things because of habit etc.

[alchemizt]

[quote=Fore post_id=135728 time=1569715674 user_id=7959]
I’m very open to the discussion of this subject, but if your not comfortable with some direct input then I suggest you simply disregard my posts.
Taking drugs and going to a Vipassana centre can both be used for the purpose of the ego.
My point is that those who have reached the paths end, know how to get to the “destination”.
[/quote]

I'll try and explain a bit. Everyones spiritual path is unique and life brings us experiences which can catalyse an awakening of some kind. An example is someone who had no interest in anything spiritual, do mushrooms for the first time which triggers a mystical experience. This experience triggers a paradigm shift and they now see the spiritual path as the only thing that matters and through the suffering they face on the path come to find Eckhart Tolle and his teachings. No the mushrooms werent necessary, this paradigm shift could have happened in many ways, the experience that catalysed it isnt important, it could have been a near death experience, could have been a traumatic event, could have been a practice like chanting, its not important, what matters is the person followed their hearts and interacted with life in such a way that they underwent an awakening or deepening or transformation or whatever you want to call it.

I'm speaking from direct experience, maybe the only.way to explain is to share some of it. A salvia trip at age 19 when I was suffering greatly, it led me to see that what looks through my eyes and the eyes of all other beings is the same thing and that all suffering is created by being caught in an illusion in which we believe we are separate from eqch other and the universe. Before this I was praying to the universe to be set free from suffering and it was this intent that drove me to salvia like a magnet. I had no idea what I had seen, it disturbed me greatly and was so difficult to see the illusion come back afterwards and all the suffering come back with it. This experience did not set me free but it planted a seed. Many years later when I discovered ET, I could see that what hes describing, I experienced this in great depth temporarily. This enabled me to drop a lot of the doubts I had. Words are so limited and Im typing from a phone, theres so much Ive left out of what I just said.

An iboga ceremony 7 years ago led to a kundalini awakening or some kind of experience where for a week I was both male and female, I was whole and complete and in a state of spiritual ecstasy for a week, then came the most intensely painful and difficult experiences which devastated me and pushed me to discover ET and practice presence as my only hope of transcending suffering. Ironically, where I was when I first started going deep into presence and seeing ETs teachings transforming my whole existence, I was in a drug rehab center. Drug addiction (and some things that happened which i cant explain in a few short words) brought me to such a point of hopelessness and despair that I was ready to experientially discover what ET speaks of. So believe it or not, drug use led me to discover presence.

I have never used drugs or any mind altering substance to practice presence, but there are times when I decide to use a mind altering substance and of course I treat the experience like every life experience, as an opportunity to learn. Theres a big difference between something like alcohol and something like DMT. To call them both drugs like they are the same thing doesnt reflect understanding. Alcohol is most commonly used to escape the present moment and escape from self awarenes. DMT is most commonly used to see more deeply into the self and the universe. Do you see that these two situations are very different when it comes to the spiritual path? Ayahuasca is not something many people tend to become dependant on. The experience can be terrifying and agonising as the ayahuasca can strip away your attachments and illusions. Really its not ayahuasca doing it, its you.

Ayahuasca in itself does not help with being present, its about how its used. For most people, washing the dishes doesnt help to deepen presence. But someone practicing deepening presence will use this experience, like all experiences to practice presence. Of course you wont depend on washing dishes to be present, if there are no dishes to wash it makes no difference because life will always provide the perfect conditions for you to wake up.

[Fore]

Ayahuasca in itself does not help with being present, its about how its used. For most people, washing the dishes doesnt help to deepen presence. But someone practicing deepening presence will use this experience, like all experiences to practice presence. Of course you wont depend on washing dishes to be present, if there are no dishes to wash it makes no difference because life will always provide the perfect conditions for you to wake up.

I’m happy you had experiences that led to an awakening and that you are experiencing joy.
My point is regarding the practice of developing ones awareness.
It is not about this experience or that, and using any drug to influence concentration is going in the opposite direction. The task is to work with whatever presents from one moment to the next, be that boredom, lack of concentration, anger, joy, or whatever. To see the transient nature of these states(experiences). They come they stay for awhile and then go, or change. Nothing to chase after nothing to cling to, they are impermanent, they are not you.
Using anything for the purpose of changing what is being experienced at this moment is craving, and supporting ones craving is travelling in opposite direction.
All the mystical ancient traditions using these drugs are playing games with experience and have lost the essence of their origin.
This fact is difficult to accept when the addiction to a particular substance or substances is strong.
I struggle with food intake and energy, my job and day to day life is very busy. My job is extremely physical, I’m older and experience much joint pain, knee troubles, etc.. also not much relaxation time, two kids in competitive sports, and taking care of providing for their needs and interests.
When exhausted I often loose the balance of intaking energy and using food for pleasure. When on a retreat I find my intake is drastically reduced but upon return to the grind of family life it increases. This is my drug so to speak, but unlike the drugs we are discussing I cannot quit taking food or I will die. You will not die if you don’t smoke a marajuana joint.

[alchemizt]

Ayahuasca in itself does not help with being present, its about how its used. For most people, washing the dishes doesnt help to deepen presence. But someone practicing deepening presence will use this experience, like all experiences to practice presence. Of course you wont depend on washing dishes to be present, if there are no dishes to wash it makes no difference because life will always provide the perfect conditions for you to wake up.

I’m happy you had experiences that led to an awakening and that you are experiencing joy.
My point is regarding the practice of developing ones awareness.
It is not about this experience or that, and using any drug to influence concentration is going in the opposite direction. The task is to work with whatever presents from one moment to the next, be that boredom, lack of concentration, anger, joy, or whatever. To see the transient nature of these states(experiences). They come they stay for awhile and then go, or change. Nothing to chase after nothing to cling to, they are impermanent, they are not you.
Using anything for the purpose of changing what is being experienced at this moment is craving, and supporting ones craving is travelling in opposite direction.
All the mystical ancient traditions using these drugs are playing games with experience and have lost the essence of their origin.
This fact is difficult to accept when the addiction to a particular substance or substances is strong.
I struggle with food intake and energy, my job and day to day life is very busy. My job is extremely physical, I’m older and experience much joint pain, knee troubles, etc.. also not much relaxation time, two kids in competitive sports, and taking care of providing for their needs and interests.
When exhausted I often loose the balance of intaking energy and using food for pleasure. When on a retreat I find my intake is drastically reduced but upon return to the grind of family life it increases. This is my drug so to speak, but unlike the drugs we are discussing I cannot quit taking food or I will die. You will not die if you don’t smoke a marajuana joint.

You're still eating in order to change your experience of starving to death if you don't. This isn't feeding craving and aversion though, this is just choosing to stay alive. In life, we're always presented with choices that will effect our experience. Taking a medicine to heal an illness, this is this feeding aversion by running away from the reality of the illness? It can be, but not necessarily. It can be but isnt necessarily. Eating food addictively isn't the only way to eat. Addictive eating feeds craving and aversion and pulls us away from the present moment. Mindful eating helps deepen presence. Its like this with ayahuasca and all entheogens. Its all about how you use them.

[Fore]

You're still eating in order to change your experience of starving to death if you don't. This isn't feeding craving and aversion though, this is just choosing to stay alive. In life, we're always presented with choices that will effect our experience. Taking a medicine to heal an illness, this is this feeding aversion by running away from the reality of the illness? It can be, but not necessarily. It can be but isnt necessarily. Eating food addictively isn't the only way to eat. Addictive eating feeds craving and aversion and pulls us away from the present moment. Mindful eating helps deepen presence. Its like this with ayahuasca and all entheogens. Its all about how you use them.

In my case I eat for two purposes, 1. Is simply to sustain the body. And 2. I use food like a drug to change the way I feel at times.

Your logic suggests that a heroin user can take heroin in perfect amounts with absolute control and never experience cravings for the substance or any negative effects.
If a person is injured a doctor may prescribe some medicine which effects body a certain way, if this is a pain killer it can become addictive. If used to as prescribed to help with pain then fine but as the injury heals and body feels less pain if continued use the individual is using the drug and risks addiction.
There is no purpose to use ayahuaska drugs, other than the experience, you like this experience and continue use you are using the drug in the same way I use food for craving, and risk addiction and strengthening craving and future suffering.
The body does not need ayahuasca.

[Webwanderer]

There is no purpose to use ayahuaska drugs, other than the experience,

I disagree. While I've never taken ayahausca, I have explored psilocybin and marijuana. I have also spent considerable time in meditation. Both have good value in spiritual growth.

One might argue, correctly, that everything in life is engaged for the experience. That however, is too broad a description for this discussion. Still, it must be understood from a larger perspective that everything in this life is about experience. Most drugs like heroine and cocaine are not intended nor used for expansion of consciousness. Psychedelics however, have the unique property of expanding consciousness when taken with appropriate intent and guidance.

It's not so different from meditation. The focus of one's meditation has a significant effect on the consciousness and experience of the one meditating. It can take years to become proficient in meditation. Psychedelics, in a single experience, tend to break through mental blockages that meditation does not so easily do. That said, psychedelics come with risks that meditation does not. It's for each individual to decide what risk is acceptable and under what circumstances.

It seems no accident that the explosion of interest in expanding consciousness coincides with the growth in the use of psychedelics.

WW

[Fore]

I disagree. While I've never taken ayahausca, I have explored psilocybin and marijuana. I have also spent considerable time in meditation. Both have good value in spiritual growth.

One might argue, correctly, that everything in life is engaged for the experience. That however, is too broad a description for this discussion. Still, it must be understood from a larger perspective that everything in this life is about experience. Most drugs like heroine and cocaine are not intended nor used for expansion of consciousness. Psychedelics however, have the unique property of expanding consciousness when taken with appropriate intent and guidance.

It's not so different from meditation. The focus of one's meditation has a significant effect on the consciousness and experience of the one meditating. It can take years to become proficient in meditation. Psychedelics, in a single experience, tend to break through mental blockages that meditation does not so easily do. That said, psychedelics come with risks that meditation does not. It's for each individual to decide what risk is acceptable and under what circumstances.

It seems no accident that the explosion of interest in expanding consciousness coincides with the growth in the use of psychedelics.

WW

To observe the reality at the depth of mind where the cycle of creation can be broken, requires a sharp concentrated mind.
One of the first steps towards gaining a sharp concentrated mind, capable of penetrating reality at this required depth is making some basic changes to ones behaviour.
1. Do not kill.
In order to kill one must generate an incredible amount of anger and hatred. When the mind is this agitated it is impossible to see clearly.
2. Do not steal.
In order to steal the mind must be filled with greed, a greedy mind has no balance, without balance there is no clarity.
3. Refrain from sexual misconduct.
Cheating on your spouse or sleeping with your friends underaged children, requires a mind full of lust. A mind full of lust cannot focus, an unfocused mind cannot see clearly.
4. Do not lie.
When we lie we are always worried about getting caught in our lies, much energy is required to maintain these lies. How can a mind full of such worry investigate and put a stop to the creation of more self and more suffering when it is so busy.
5. Do not take intoxicants.
If you visit a prison and talk with the inmates almost all of them have committed their crimes under the influence of some form of drug. When we take any intoxicating substance we lose the balance of our mind and our meditation is weak. We are also more likely to break one the first 4 while under this influence.
Only a clear concentrated balanced mind can undertake the job of ending ones misery.

[Webwanderer]

Only a clear concentrated balanced mind can undertake the job of ending ones misery.

And psychedelics, under the right conditions, can do just that. When one's mind is in a morass, breaking free of its hold is a good thing no matter what the catalyst. Freedom is freedom. Experience is always the best teacher.

WW

[Fore]

Only a clear concentrated balanced mind can undertake the job of ending ones misery.

And psychedelics, under the right conditions, can do just that. When one's mind is in a morass, breaking free of its hold is a good thing no matter what the catalyst. Freedom is freedom. Experience is always the best teacher.

WW

No, they can’t. You are merely playing games with experience on drugs. The serious task of ending ones misery is not dependent on anything “added” to you.
If mind is not concentrated work with unconcentrated mind, see how long it lasts, observe the mind craving for a more concentrated mind, watch it pass.
If adding intoxicants how can one discern the actual reality if one is seeking change?

[Webwanderer]

The serious task of ending ones misery is not dependent on anything “added” to you.

I don't recall saying anything about being 'dependent'. That is only your argument. I only state there are effective options to gain greater clarity on life. There is not just one path - meditation - to that clarity.

I appreciate your passion on the subject, but I will trust my own experience over your statements no matter how intensely you express them. I suspect there are many others who would agree.

WW

[Fore]

I don't recall saying anything about being 'dependent'. That is only your argument. I only state there are effective options to gain greater clarity on life. There is not just one path - meditation - to that clarity.

I appreciate your passion on the subject, but I will trust my own experience over your statements no matter how intensely you express them. I suspect there are many others who would agree.

WW

What exactly are the drugs clarifying that you couldn’t see without them.
Are they not simply intensifying some experience or emotion bringing it to the surface and more into view?
Would it not be of greater benefit to develop in awareness, to develop thru practice and lifestyle choices a mind which can pierce into these experience and emotion, with calm and stability. Learning to observe a past trauma with such clarity that it can be broken apart into fragments which seen individually are nothing to react towards.
It just seems that drugs intensify the trauma, or magnify the trauma bringing it to the surface. Where the path is to penetrate through the layers deeper and deeper breaking a trauma into refined parts.
Without preaching, can you see a difference that I’m pointing towards.
Isn’t this why at times people trip out on drugs the experience is magnified/intensified and individuals are overwhelmed. A good trip is when we like the rxperience or emotion brought to the surface, a bad trip is when we dislike what is experienced.
Is this not just a big game of trying to control what comes to the surface?

[Webwanderer]

What exactly are the drugs clarifying that you couldn’t see without them.
Are they not simply intensifying some experience or emotion bringing it to the surface and more into view?
Would it not be of greater benefit to develop in awareness, to develop thru practice and lifestyle choices a mind which can pierce into these experience and emotion, with calm and stability. Learning to observe a past trauma with such clarity that it can be broken apart into fragments which seen individually are nothing to react towards.
It just seems that drugs intensify the trauma, or magnify the trauma bringing it to the surface. Where the path is to penetrate through the layers deeper and deeper breaking a trauma into refined parts.
Without preaching, can you see a difference that I’m pointing towards.
Isn’t this why at times people trip out on drugs the experience is magnified/intensified and individuals are overwhelmed. A good trip is when we like the rxperience or emotion brought to the surface, a bad trip is when we dislike what is experienced.
Is this not just a big game of trying to control what comes to the surface?

What is the case you are trying to make here? Are you speaking from experience, or is it an intellectual analysis? I'm genuinely curious. Now this is just me, but it would seem that if the meditation results you are espousing was all you say it is, you would have a more accepting view on all aspects of the human experience. Isn't such acceptance an element of a clear and expanded consciousness? Why the argumentative intensity?

As to some drugs creating an overwhelming experience, any sudden awakening can be overwhelming and disconcerting. Many in this forum have attested that in their own experience. I did state earlier the importance of intent and guidance.

In my own experience, I have found that hard line approaches to most anything are flawed by their very own inherent inflexibility. Maybe the most valuable rule I have lived by in all my years is the value of never being 100 percent certain of anything. Of that, I am certain...

WW