Tolle's view on the Bible

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weichen
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Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by weichen » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:46 pm

It takes a lot courage to express his view on Bible. Tolle pointed out that the Bible contains accumulatoin of a lot of misunderstanding, and egoic agenda of people in the organized religion adds more misinterpretation to it.

This view alone has the potential to create a lot of space on Earth. I believe many other spiritual teachers probably felt the same, but dare not to say so.

Some forum members expressed their 'frustration', on the surface it seems to point to what has been said, but deep down, the 'frustration' may be due to that which can be said but is not said. That is why freedom of speech is so precious.

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by now-here » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:59 pm

again...his "view" is filtered, split, and fractured. he uses what he can to support his thesis....and its wishy washy, as he also quotes from A Course In Miracles. You know....A C I M....the bible that "jesus" rewrote through an atheist. Since the majority of his audience are "christian"...or have at least been exposed to it he knows that it wouldn't serve him well to just negate it. Negate or praise, what's it matter when you bow down to the impersonal, abstract, "god of forces"?

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:35 pm

now-here wrote:again...his "view" is filtered, split, and fractured. he uses what he can to support his thesis
I'm not so sure about "filtered, split, and fractured". From a slightly different perspective, it may well be: awakened, clarifying and distinct. Certainly Tolle points out specific biblical teachings that emphasize points he wishes to make; would you expect him to point to the Bible whole cloth as if every word were true and unquestionable? Anyone who points to scripture is going to be singling out something in particular as reference. How could anyone expect otherwise.

It's not like Tolle doesn't have his own direct understanding; but when people of Christian origin, whose minds are strongly conditioned by Christian teachings, have concerns based on those teachings, it's not likely they will gain clarity beyond their currently held belief without some validation from within the scriptures. He has said repeatedly that religion can be a portal to awakened consciousness. However, in order to do so one must get beyond historic and conventional interpretations, made by people and institutions, that have their own agenda in how they portray scriptures. Do they seek followers and converts; or do they point the way to clarity and truth seen directly? We all have to decide for ourselves what is in our best interest - and be willing to experience the consequences of our choices.
Since the majority of his audience are "christian"...or have at least been exposed to it he knows that it wouldn't serve him well to just negate it.
This seems speculative in the extreme. How would you know what "serves" him? It appears more likely that you have rendered judgment upon his motives based on personal beliefs that are unsupported by any evidence.

If you don't like the message that Tolle offers, if you are unable to regain the clarity and presence he is pointing to, or if you do not sense the peace and love that is available by stepping into the conscious awareness that is your true nature, then maybe a different approach would serve you better. To make the criticisms that you have made lately on this forum, seems disdainful of those who have (or may yet have) awakenings that may free them from painful beliefs that have held them for years.

Please consider these words. Truth is not realized in the mind, but in the heart. Clear presence awareness is the portal to self realization. To the degree that mind is active in self identity, or judgmental proclamations, clarity is sacrificed.
WW

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by heidi » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:01 pm

I really enjoy how Tolle incorporates Bible passages, and other spiritual writings, in his work and brings the words to a place where the meaning is truly felt. Over the centuries, the symbolic meaning of some of those words have been perverted by the ego-based, literal world where the true deepest meaning has been lost. Tolle does a great job of stripping away the baloney and getting to the core truth, the true symbolic meaning, of those words.

The Peace that Surpasses All Understanding - I heard those words twice yesterday as we buried my husband's dad. Most religious words are babble to me, but after reading Tolle's work, I can find the sparkle in a few gems that were hidden beneath the soil of literal thinking. :)
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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by kiki » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:21 pm

Sorry to hear about your father-in-law heidi.
Most religious words are babble to me, but after reading Tolle's work, I can find the sparkle in a few gems that were hidden beneath the soil of literal thinking. :)
What a great turn of phrase - I love it.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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now-here, take a hike

Post by innerhike » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:36 am

Now-Here,

After I read your post above, I took a couple minutes to read through your other posts on these forums.

You are one of these fundamentalist Christians that has nothing better to do but go after what you perceive as the enemy, the people who do not believe in your mainstream version of Jesus Christ. Whatever does not conform to this view is considered pagan or new age. Somehow you conservatives think that your anger, your inability to change, and your belief in some story about some guy from 2000 years ago gives you some special privilege. It's not that you guys are saying "Jesus is the only way", you are in effect saying "My Way or the Highway".

I grew up Hindu in India.

I see Eckhart quoting liberally from Hindu scriptures and Buddhist teachings. I have no problem with that.

In Hinduism we appreciate discussion and personal experience instead of treating dogma/politics/historical treatises as religion.

I personally see that Eckhart is able to re-interpret scriptures and teachings from all world religions because in the first place these words came to someone who was in a state similar to Eckhart's.

This is not speculation on my part. This is my personal experience. And you can take your useless vindictiveness back to your own camp, since you see this world as "right camp" or "wrong camp".

First be in the state that Jesus was in and then talk to us about him. Don't read some book that has been re-written over and over by committees of men over many centuries, and then tell me what God is.

God is right here, right now. You can take a hike, you have my permission. After all my name is innerhike.

God don't need no church, no salespeople. Baby you ain't indulging in Christianity, you indulging in what we call Churchianity.

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by innerhike » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:03 am

In addition to my comments above I believe that the minute Eckhart's popularity starts to grow in any culture or nation, the fundamentalists in that nation or culture will begin to target him whether it be through words, actions or otherwise.

It is not just fundamentalist Christianity that will find itself acting out against the message of Eckhart, fundamentalists in all religions, such as Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism (and even Communism) will speak ill of Eckhart and his work.

I hope this day does not come to pass. But the way Eckhart's popularity is growing, I can see how this will threaten all the ego-maniacs and freaks who are the fundamentalists in the various religions of the world.

The job of the ego maniacs and fundamentalists is quite simple. They believe that all was good hundreds or thousands of years ago when so and so prophet or Son/Daughter/Incarnation of God was alive, but right now no one knows The Way. So their deal is to re-create the world as they believe it existed 500, 1000, 2000 or 5000 years ago. Through rioting, bombing, or whatever means necessary. The EGO is unable to let go. It is that simple.

The Way is ever here, ever present, it does not require religious, outward displays of devotion. God ain't hanging on some cross somewhere. God ain't limited to the OM symbol or to Mecca. God ain't. Period.

These are the primitive notions of a primitive species. To create a mythology or story about the universe that is in their own image. It is not that Man is created in the image of God. It is that you fundamentalists have created a God in the image of Man. There are no words to describe Life, God and Universe, yet you all persist in holding to certain points in time and space as being more valuable than all other points. This is simple positionality, the ability to take positions is how the Ego survives.

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Armageddon is not a certainty. Everyone who suffers may choose to give up their suffering. But the problem is when people think that their version of The Way is the only way.

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by heidi » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:21 am

Amen, Innerhike. :)
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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by garuda » Thu May 15, 2008 5:32 am

Innerhike,
Although I agree with everything you said, since I feel it is quite correct and articulate.... I feel compelled to share a story with you. I never really bought the Christian view or dogmas; but since 84% of the US population claims to be Christian according to the last census, I try to get along with the flock. But the more I studied and practiced the eastern traditions, the more annoying or abrasive certain types of Christian arrogance (or unconsciousness) became to me – especially the evangelicals. And, of course, the evangelicals should always be highly revered as spiritual adepts since they are all totally free from sins, errors, unwholesome behaviors — and are obviously fully awakened beings since they assume the authority to preach to all others who aren’t Christians.

But then I noticed that my cynicism toward unconscious bible-thumpers was actually contaminating my own practices, and would disturb my peace and presence awareness. So who suffered from my judgements and criticism, regardless of how legitimate they might be? I suspect if you call someone a fool, and he truly is one, his own foolishness would likely blind him to the truth of that foolishness and protect him from your accurate words. So nothing likely changes a fool's opinion by merely expressing an admonishment...... and, in fact it may even strengthen his foolish stance by his defensiveness.

So in the interest of my own striving toward sustaining equanimity and present awareness (which is very difficult sometimes), I try to quietly empathize with that opinionated or difficult person, remembering that I too once held that same arrogance and self-righteous stance — and maybe I still do in comparison to others who are more conscious than me. I am told that sometimes a skillful teacher will insult or embarrass a challenging student by utilizing the “shock effect” as a tool to awaken him to a higher consciousness. But I am far from being skilled enough to use such a technique, and certainly am not a qualified teacher. So I attempt quiet empathy to at least keep myself steadied-up.

You sound like a serious and prudent practitioner. So.... although your commentary was likely appropriate and certainly well said, I sincerely hope that the foolish comments from others do not disturb your equanimity. Because I find that difficult people can easily distract me from my moment-to-moment awareness practice if I am not careful. And sometimes I stumble even when I am careful. I wish you skill and equanimity in your practice.
Recognize present awareness......... rest in that awareness..........don’t become distracted.

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by wolfe » Thu May 15, 2008 3:32 pm

In my opinion, ET's real accomplishment in writing his books was to take 2000+ years of religion and mysticism and reduce it to simple modern practice.
He's not using religion to support his own thesis, he's doing the reverse. He's looked deeply at religious practice and found the common points to all of them--presence or awareness. And then rationally (logically) explained it in terms the modern western mind can understand, without the usual self-serving mystical BS that is typical of most gurus.

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by Sighclone » Thu May 15, 2008 6:31 pm

Welcome, wolfe. We hope you enjoy your stay in our forum!

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by D'ray » Thu May 15, 2008 8:59 pm

I had the feeling that Tolle just found good quotes from the Bible and used them to support his story ( The Power of Now) :D
There's no "I" to become enlightened. The "I" can have spiritual experiences.

DON'T resist the RESISTANCE! The resistance is there. Walk into it. Feel it. Become one with it.

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by dutchred » Fri May 16, 2008 2:18 am

All here are students, and all here are teachers. Why exlude Now-here? He/she is attempting to create suffering, and suffering forces one to dig deep. Turned out okay for Eckhart!

That said, I'm glad that there are others here teaching along with Now-here. It makes it much more pleasant being a student.

Cheers,

dutchred
Yes, the umbrella was the real trouble. Behind Monet and Debussy the umbrella persisted, like a steady beat of a drum. "I suppose my umbrella will be all right," he was thinking....

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Re: Tolle's view on the Bible

Post by Sighclone » Fri May 16, 2008 7:09 am

D'ray -

In a way, I agree with you about Eckhart cherry-picking Bible quotes, and other third-party references. He had his points to make in that book, and in ANE. Much of Leviticus, for example is directed directly to egos. He looked around for scripture which addressed unity, and used some which weren't obviously non-dual. de Mello does the same thing. But the leap from Eckhart's work to say the whole Bible is misunderstood is a mistake.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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