Jesus's Resurrection

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Joy
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Jesus's Resurrection

Post by Joy » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:10 am

So far Jesus's resurrection is the only thing in the Bible that I can think of that doesn't appear to be compatible with Tolle's books (at least not the audio books that I've listened to). Does anyone know what he says about this? Or does anyone have any ideas on how they could be compatible?

I ask because I know a few Christians who I think might be open to considering this philosophy, but if I can't make Jesus's resurrection make sense with it then they're not going to be open to considering it.

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Webwanderer
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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:52 am

Most of Jesus' teachings are accessable through direct experience. Tolle's revelation of Now only helps to make what has always been true clear. As to the resurection, we cannot, nor can anyone else, know it's truth directly. Many assume the account is true and accurate. Others aren't so sure. Personally, I find his message, as well as those of Siddhartha, Lao Tsu, Tolle and and my own direct perception to be more than sufficient. Of course there are many others who point to the same truths as those mentioned, some even post in this forum.

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by AndyD » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:05 pm

For me I'd proabably challenge the whole mindset and take it from a different angle - I'd ask them why they dont believe science's big bang yet they use science's electricity, combustion engine etc etc.

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by Joy » Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:15 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Most of Jesus' teachings are accessable through direct experience. Tolle's revelation of Now only helps to make what has always been true clear. As to the resurection, we cannot, nor can anyone else, know it's truth directly. Many assume the account is true and accurate. Others aren't so sure. Personally, I find his message, as well as those of Siddhartha, Lao Tsu, Tolle and and my own direct perception to be more than sufficient. Of course there are many others who point to the same truths as those mentioned, some even post in this forum.
This works for me, but it won't for them.
AndyD wrote:For me I'd proabably challenge the whole mindset and take it from a different angle - I'd ask them why they dont believe science's big bang yet they use science's electricity, combustion engine etc etc.
Saying that would be counterproductive. :lol: I'm not looking to debate them.

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by kiki » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:16 pm

I think that turning "awakening" into a philosophical approach that could then be viewed through their current set of beliefs is the wrong way to go about this. Instead, why not simply get them to experience the present moment for themselves without any conceptual framework surrounding it? Just get them to "dive into now" and let them supply the explanation for it later if they feel compelled to have one - so what if it turns out to be a Christian flavored one. The important thing is for them to experience it for themselves. You don't have to mention Tolle, his works, or use any of the buzzwords associated with "enlightenment/awakening". For you this will be an exercise in creativity, but for them it will be an experience of reality.

I find it strangely ironic that so many "Christians" will accept on faith ideas that are more than two thousand years old (and which are seldom questioned) and rely on a future event for "redemption", yet they will resist the notion of experiencing what it is to be fully present in this moment (where "wholeness" is found), to experience the reality of what is actually here dancing before their senses without the distorting influence of mind and ego. Nearly everyone does this, but when one's religious background enters the picture suddenly a huge fear arises. Without realizing it most people are walking around completely hypnotized by their beliefs, especially religious/spiritual ones.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:22 pm

I agree with kiki's insightful post. Religions generally rely on fear to keep their members from straying out of the established view. (Hell and Satanic deception, et al) While the resurection of Jesus can only be taken on faith, there is much of his teaching that can be experienced directly. Consider Tolle's teaching of the reality of now compared with Jesus' teaching that "the kindom of heaven is at hand". Are they not pointing to the same truth? And is this not a truth that one can experience directly?

The resurrection, like the virgin birth and whether Jesus died to wash away the world's sins, will alway be relegated to faith. It is a teaching that many Christians hold dearly because they believe it makes their religion exclusive among the other primary world faiths. The thinking goes that many religions carry some similar truths, but it is only Christianity whose founder is believed (by the faithful) to be born of a virgin and to have raised himself from the dead. But the truth of this cannot be known directly, it can only be believed. And as sad as it is, there are those, past and present, who are willing to tweak the scriptures to give them more power and authority than they rightfully deserve.

The only real authority is direct experience. Even then established world views and interpretations may obscure what is sensed. That is why interpertations of experience, by a mind with pre-existing biases, can easily lead to vastly different conclusions. It is also why the Tolles of the world advise us against applying labels to that which we experience. Clarity is aware presence without mental filters.

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by RHRippere » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:36 pm

There are a few other things Jesus apparently said that I am endeavoring to better understand in the E. Tolle perspective:

"I and the Father are one." John 10:30 (is he saying this to exclude all others - aren't we all one? Is there a secret password to join the club?)

"No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6b (Eckhart has equated God/Jesus to the Present, to Now. Have we then "come to the Father" when we are in the Now?)

"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." John 14:2-4 (I can imagine Jesus is referring here to the Present, to Now - to the heaven that is around us when we have completely ignored the ego, the pain-body and all of their devices. We do know "the way to the place" and can celebrate it when we are Present. "Trust in God" is another way to say "ignore the past, the future and celebrate NOW.")

What is sin then? It is the ego acting unobserved - it is the pain-body feeding itself. In the gospels, Jesus discusses the need to seek forgiveness for sin. When I act, when my ego acts to the detriment of the Life around me, I am allowing your life, my life - our shared Life - to be diminished through hurt, robbery, malice and scheming. I must say sorry for bringing that mud into the bed then.

The "Christian" notion of "accepting Christ" or "inviting him into your heart" is never discussed by Jesus, never mentioned in the gospels by him either before his crucifixion or after his resurrection. This tradition of "asking for salvation" comes up centuries after Jesus left earth. The Bible teaches how forgiveness of sin is bought with a price - the price of shed blood symbolized through the centuries in Old Covenant temple sacrifice and in the New Covenant death and resurrection Jesus went through on the Cross.

I don't know that Eckhart addresses a "cost" of forgiveness (if there is such). I want my forgiveness to have value, to be backed by a price paid - I do not want it to be only lip-service when I apologize - I want there to be some weight to my "sorry" and to the "I forgive you." And maybe the shed blood of Christ is the gold standard, the Ft. Knox backing for the currency of Forgiveness.

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by GlowingFaceMan » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:15 am

My father, a diehard Christian, tells me about how when he first became a Christian he went through a month long period of deep joy and gratitude. So it's not impossible to achieve presence through Christianity. Unfortunately my dad has this idea that the month was a one-time-only deal.

One Christian author you might introduce them to is Merlin Carothers, specifically his book "Prison to Praise". The book is about being grateful to God for all things. ALL THING, even horrific tragedies. Of course it's written through the usual Christian lens, but nonetheless I think it's presence-encouraging. Of course not in those words, and it's not as good as Eckhart Tolle, but something is better than nothing. Anyway I think it's probably one of the best *Christian* eye-opening books. :)

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by Avum » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:43 pm

I think Eckhart may address what you're talking about here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=fAm7GvfAKNs&feature=related

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by Onceler » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:15 pm

Great clip, Avum. I think that nails it (so to speak)...
Be present, be pleasant.

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RHRippere
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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by RHRippere » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:49 am

Avum -

Thank you for finding that clip - nicely put.

Eckhart makes a good reference to the cross with Christ on it and the symbol of divinity in the EMPTY cross. Christ did leave the cross, he did leave his suffering, just as we can when we accept it, fail to resist and move on. Eckhart is careful not to get into it, but the reason the CHURCH believes the empty cross is divine, of course, is that it indicates Jesus was victorious over death.

The question (for me) remains: Is Christ on the cross a symbol of human suffering AND the sacrificial price paid for the forgiveness of mankind's sin? Perhaps both, yes. Eckhart does not address the "cost" of forgiveness, the "price" paid to right all wrong.

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:11 am

RHRippere wrote:Avum -
The question (for me) remains: Is Christ on the cross a symbol of human suffering AND the sacrificial price paid for the forgiveness of mankind's sin? Perhaps both, yes. Eckhart does not address the "cost" of forgiveness, the "price" paid to right all wrong.
RHRippere, when you ask this question, whose forgiveness are you referring to? The forgiveness that originates in a Supreme Being - God, toward the subjects of his realm? Or the forgiveness that may flow from one's own heart when a genuine reconciliation is at hand? And the cost you refer to, is that solely the cost of suffering Jesus experiened on the cross? Or is the cost of surrendering the judgments that lie festering within our own pain bodies? One we can know directly, one we can only imagine.

There is much in religious dogma that only serves to elicit guilt, and thereby, indebtedness in our experience of life. Awakening to one's true nature, offers freedom from such debilitating concepts. How much better is it to live in honest gratitude for the experience of living because of the direct perception of one's true nature, than in the obligated servitude to ideals of a savior's sacrifice?

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Can't pedal to heaven

Post by RHRippere » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:08 am

Wow.

I don't know. I haven't ever really understood why judeo-christianity spends so much energy chronicling the costs, payment, debt and blood-washing for sin and grace. Has always seemed a hopeless accounting to me!

I do understand that I can't pedal to heaven, can't earn it, can't repay any debt - and because I can't WORK for it - I don't need to and should stop bothering.

Thank you for the eye-openers, WW.

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:09 pm

Keep the change RHRippere. :D (pun intended)

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Re: Jesus's Resurrection

Post by mistral » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:16 pm

Here is another very good explanation of this:

http://www.williamsamuel.com/archive%20list.htm

Go to the question about something like "what is the significance of Jesus Chirst in all this?"

There is also long version of the answer on PDF there....it's excellent! Really clears up a lot of this and makes perfect sense.

Love, Mistral

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