Whether you do or you don't...

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eagle2phoenix
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by eagle2phoenix » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:51 am

Tony-S-Ma wrote:What one is may choose not to be ONE with God. This to be or not to be is none of one's mind's business.
Ouch!!! That is so twisted for one who participates with inner growth. Next time I will duck.
Life is fascinating. Nature is beautiful. Live life with nature.

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by RCharles » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:34 am

Andy said:
Eckhart says somewhere (I paraphrase) "If there is not unconditional love for all beings, then it is not enlightenment."
THAT'S what I been tryin' to say! You said it so well and so succinctly, Andy! Or rather, Eckhart did. :D

Compassion/love comes with enlightenment; it's a package deal. One may feel detached from everything, but if we're going around talking about how empty the world is, how meaningless, and what phony sacks of crud we all are because we are so full of ego, our detachment is nihilism, or psychologically speaking, depression, not enlightenment.

Better to dwell on accepting, and by doing so finding not only acceptance but love.

Charles
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Sighclone » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:51 am

The actual quote from PON, page 162 is
If there isn't an emanation of love and joy, complete presence and openness toward all beings, then it is not enlightenment.
He goes on to suggest that the world will bring you a challenge to your enlightenment, and bring out whatever remains of your unconsciousness - resulting in fear, anger, judgement, defensiveness, depression, etc...

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Juniper22 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:40 am

RCharles wrote:Andy said:
Eckhart says somewhere (I paraphrase) "If there is not unconditional love for all beings, then it is not enlightenment."
THAT'S what I been tryin' to say! You said it so well and so succinctly, Andy! Or rather, Eckhart did. :D

Compassion/love comes with enlightenment; it's a package deal. One may feel detached from everything, but if we're going around talking about how empty the world is, how meaningless, and what phony sacks of crud we all are because we are so full of ego, our detachment is nihilism, or psychologically speaking, depression, not enlightenment.
Hey RCharles -

I haven`t read anyone here call you "a phony sack of crud" (or even come close to it - what is crud anyway? :) ).

Do you know what compassion/love is... and are you taking your own interpretation from what others say regarding it?

I would consider it an act of love for someone to point out I was "full of ego," that I was mistaken in what I said etc. if that were the case - rather than throwing their arm around me telling me what a great fellow I was (and in so doing allowing me to remain asleep).
Better to dwell on accepting, and by doing so finding not only acceptance but love.
How can you find acceptance, or love? You either "be" loving or not. Accept things as they are yes, but of course everything changes.
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by JR40 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:41 pm

Hi there, this is my first post, so forgive me if it is a little awkward or off the mark!!!

my own interpretation of what enlightenment is is the discovery that you are a vessel through which the Universal Intelligence experiences life. That intelligence does not ruminate over whether something is right or wrong, and does not operate on love and hate, it just is what it is and evolves and grows within each present moment, allowing itself to experience freely without restriction.

That includes everything humans have experienced so far, including the ego and emotion. If the ego is destructive toward survival, then its destiny is to evolve into a more constructive tool, or dissolve. It will happen DESPITE what we all individually think, but even the intellectual process is part of evolution and the same rules will apply to that too.

Therefore, 'whether you do or you don't' doesnt matter because the universal intelligence experiences life THROUGH you and will evolve regardless. If we use this as our basis for life, and realise our individual interpretation only makes a difference to how pleasurable that experience is, then we are free to live our lives however we choose. Give the Universe whatever experience you wish to create. ACCEPT that what will be will be and be present, ENJOY however you choose to live your life, and be ENTHUSIASTIC about whatever you find you enjoy the most, even if that is to be contradictory or compliant with others - I imagine that if we can surrender to the natural state that the universal intelligence has reached in its evolution it will be full of the qualities we all aspire to experience including being aware of itself. I am curious however, that if we as a species are the first to have conciousness and effectively are the mirror by which the universal intelligence sees itself, what effect will that have on it's (and therefore our) evolution?

All the best, Jane

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Sighclone » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:26 pm

Welcome, Jane. And stop worrying about being "off the mark :) " No one has to always be on the mark to post here :) .

You would enjoy "Backwards" by Nanci Danison, an attorney - she had an out-of-body near death experience and came back with many insights related to your post. Her website is backwardsbooks.com, I think.

From lots of reading and a life-between-lives past life regression hypnosis session (ala Michael Newton), and some modest awareness, I'm certain we are not the only intelligent species in the universe. Regarding the level of consciousness of whatever species, including humans, Source (which is what I understand your Universal Intelligence to be) will Self-realize through whatever vessel arises at whatever pace is natural, in my opinion.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by RCharles » Fri May 01, 2009 6:31 am

Hi Juniper,

Thanks for your thoughts--truly. Your view of compassion makes sense--helping a person see how they are misleading and hurting themselves can certainly be compassionate if the person is able to receive your insight and grow in awareness because of it. The definition I was operating under is "to suffer with" or "to feel with," sharing in the feelings of others in an accepting, loving, non-judgemental way. Both are opposite sides of the same coin, don't you think? :)

For me personally, the latter definition is the one I believe is better for my own growth. Making myself the judge of someone else's or society's ego problems builds my own ego too much, which is why I don't find it a healthy path. After spending a lifetime suffering because of my ego, I am only too happy to try to let it go and focus on acceptance and nonjudgemental love instead.

That said, and probably too much said, I also have to say I've been trying to bow out of this particular discussion because it resonates too much with my ego. (I probably should not have posted to the topic in the first place.) Rather than indulge ego further, I'd like to let the conversation go, but I didn't want to be unkind and leave your comment unacknowledged. Maybe I'll see you and Sevenworlds in another topic. :D

Warm Regards,
Charles
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Webwanderer » Fri May 01, 2009 1:27 pm

Sighclone wrote: Regarding the level of consciousness of whatever species, including humans, Source (which is what I understand your Universal Intelligence to be) will Self-realize through whatever vessel arises at whatever pace is natural, in my opinion.
Nicely put Andy.

Meanwhile, some temporary amnesia combined with imaginings of being a separate identity make for some interesting adventures.

WW

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Sighclone » Fri May 01, 2009 8:44 pm

I guess the pure Advaitists, in their abstract Brahmin bliss/void would have a problem with someone really enjoying a cheeseburger, but there is a level at which samadhi and samsara merge. The Heart Sutra reminds us that "Emptiness is Form, Form is Emptiness."

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by karmarider » Sat May 02, 2009 2:19 am

Sighclone wrote:I guess the pure Advaitists, in their abstract Brahmin bliss/void would have a problem with someone really enjoying a cheeseburger, but there is a level at which samadhi and samsara merge. The Heart Sutra reminds us that "Emptiness is Form, Form is Emptiness."

Andy
I grew up in an Indian Hindu family--though I was never religious, I would say you are right. It's not just the Advaitists, but any traditional Hindu would react to eating beef in much the same way as an American might react to eating a dog or a cat.

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Tue May 05, 2009 2:01 pm

samadhi wrote:
sevenworlds wrote:...makes no difference.
That seems like a very nihilistic worldview. But while from an ultimate sense "whether you do or don't makes no difference" might be true, from a relative perspective I don't think it's a healthy standpoint. If you see someone about to be attacked or killed, would you simply shrug your shoulders and think "ultimately it makes no difference whether I help or not"?
Even dressing it up as "relative" or "ultimate" makes no difference. That's how silly all this is. You can talk about the problems of non-duality, Advaita, neo-Advaita... whatever you like, but all you are doing is superimposing more concepts on the concepts I am using. I am making some statements. The statements themselves are not the actual fact. Yet you are then getting worried about how those statements might be misleading people. Both my statements and your statements are making no difference to what is actually happening.

If I see someone about to be attacked or killed my action will be my action. Whatever thought is there - "makes no difference whether I help or not" - doesn't change a thing. If I don't take any action, then after the event I may buy into another thought that convinces me my previous thought was what made me not take action. All of them are unrelated to the action itself.

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue May 05, 2009 11:35 pm

sevenworlds wrote:
samadhi wrote:
sevenworlds wrote:...makes no difference.
That seems like a very nihilistic worldview. But while from an ultimate sense "whether you do or don't makes no difference" might be true, from a relative perspective I don't think it's a healthy standpoint. If you see someone about to be attacked or killed, would you simply shrug your shoulders and think "ultimately it makes no difference whether I help or not"?
Even dressing it up as "relative" or "ultimate" makes no difference. That's how silly all this is. You can talk about the problems of non-duality, Advaita, neo-Advaita... whatever you like, but all you are doing is superimposing more concepts on the concepts I am using. I am making some statements. The statements themselves are not the actual fact. Yet you are then getting worried about how those statements might be misleading people. Both my statements and your statements are making no difference to what is actually happening.

If I see someone about to be attacked or killed my action will be my action. Whatever thought is there - "makes no difference whether I help or not" - doesn't change a thing. If I don't take any action, then after the event I may buy into another thought that convinces me my previous thought was what made me not take action. All of them are unrelated to the action itself.
The driver is unable to control the horse which is the connection between him and the carriage. Manifestation of a frustrated mind.

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Wed May 06, 2009 12:19 pm

When life realises it is living itself who is there to control what?

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by mistral » Wed May 06, 2009 5:44 pm

Since Divine Mind (Godhead-Uncreated Source) is All in all and being the Awareness I am then we see that This Mind is Immutable, Infinite, Eternal and Unchanging. It is Perfection Already, It Is Pure, Unadulterated Light. It cannot be harmed or touched by the images or appearances that are 'going on' within It. Therefore, Yes, It makes no difference (In Chinese the Taoist Sage says Mayo-guan-chee "It makes no difference", not sure how to spell it in English)

Yes, In Truth, From the Highest Point of View we can imagine, accend to, find, arrive at and come to and see our world from, we see in Absolute Fact that nothing we do makes any difference To That Which Is Being All in all. From the Expanded View, The All inclusive View, the Unlimited and Unbound View we understand the Kingdom of God is Already Here, that we are already on Holy Ground and nothing can happen to That/This The Only One That Is really Real or Absolute in all this. As if Seeing From the Eyes of Godhead, we see The Allness and Immutability of The Eternal One. It is a requirement to understand this fact, otherwise we have no Truth to stand on.

Although, I need add here, lest I am mis-understood; In order to see this Eternal Immutable Oneness, really KNOW It, one must "put off the old man" and then put on the new. Proclaiming the allness and onlyness of the “new” first is like attempting to put new wine into an old wineskin, or a new patch on an old garment. Until the mis-identification is seen for what it is with relation to this Awareness, right here, right now, our proclamation that “God is all” is so much babble. ("God is all" is my favorite way to speak about "non-duality" The Divine Oneness, so I am using that expression here)

Yet, once we get that, then we must (we have not choice in the matter) go back down the Mountain, back into the 'world of matter-time-images within Awareness'. And when we do, we must take with us the Beauty and Light we saw from the Peak of Da Shan (Da Shan is the mountain that represents the world of form, the Child is our Pure innocent essential nature)

(if you want to better understand this "Da Shan" read this full explanation):
http://www.williamsamuel.com/07-22-07-Da%20Shan.htm

Anyway, you must come back down into the world and hopefully you will bring back with you a way to share what you Saw from The Peak, without confounding everyone. You have found the Child and you have found In That your own unique way to tell of the Light of Truth that says "It makes no difference". We come back and tell others of the Immutable Living Presence 'they are' and we tell Why "It makes no difference" but, also, the paradoxical point that it is of essential importance that we 'make the journey of Self Discovery' and go to the Peak of Da Shan.

Then coming back down the Mountain we look around and Know that It Does Make a difference to the images, to the scene, to all the 'rest of our self' that longs to be free from fear and pain and suffering, So Yes, it does make a difference here, down here back in 'the world' and Something from That Beauty and Truth remains in our Heart and It never leaves or forsakes us, and we can touch the Hem of Its Robe at all times...and The Eternal Song in our Heart, IT tells us to give and share what we discovered " Up There" because it is our God given mission when we get back (and it can be shared and given in millions of ways, not just writing or speaking, you will find and know your way to do this) Yes, even though It makes no difference, it makes a tremendous difference ...how can that be? So it makes no difference if I share my Heart's treasures, and it makes no difference if I do not, and It makes no difference to Ineffable Godhead what I do or do not do here in the world of images (holographic light reflections of Godhead) and YET It So Does Make A huge Difference and especially now in these late days....How that can be, I do not know, but I Trust what I have been given to see, know, and understand.

Much Love, Mistral

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Wed May 06, 2009 6:08 pm

Mistral,

I'm not sure if that post was directed at me? Anyway, I'll answer. First of all, do you not see that the "highest point of view", the ascension, the up there and coming back down are all figments of your imagination. You create the distance. Thought creates that distance and then convinces itself it's got a mountain to climb and needs somebody who has seen to come back down and share it. It does this to maintain that very distance it's claiming it wants rid of.

It is thought that is putting another up on the mountain in the first place and then crying out that it's too inaccessible. It's all just a bunch of high-sounding words and concepts that we've been fed over centuries. There is nothing else to it. If they somehow fall away, there it is. It's not grand or mighty or noble, this is all imagination that feeds this. It's just simple. That's why I cannot say it any other way. I will only keep chopping at these ideas ruthlessly because I refuse to dress it up and comfort people in any way. It's all the comfort you've been getting that has burdened you with all these concepts of how hard it is and how you need it put a certain way. Throw away all the poetic, romantic notions of it and you'll laugh at how you could ever have missed it.

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