The Law of Confusion- an essay

Manifesting your reality or the Law of Attraction

Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby Sighclone » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:54 pm

Welcome back, Kaushik!

If the LOA "works," surely it can be tested. OOPS...it can't be. Let's say you do everything you are supposed to (by your interpretation) and it "doesn't work." (You didn't get what you wanted.) Some LOA guru would just say..."...Aw, you just didn't 'do it right.'" How could anyone ever know if you "did it right?" Is the proof in the pudding (at 450 degrees :) ?)

OR, let's say you start in on the "technique" and the next day you win the lottery. Bingo, it worked! Or not. Or let's say you start the LOA "practice" and over ten years, you get things you wanted...(isn't that what it's about, fulfilling desires...desires being sort of linked to the ego...). So you then think that the LOA "worked" for you. How could you ever know what would have happened if you didn't "do it."

Untestable. Therefore unprovable. Therefore much ado about nothing.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:36 pm

Andy, isn't that the same argument about life after death? It can't be proven, therefore it's not true? You've even extolled the works of Nanci Danison. Can what she says be proven? There is a ton of anecdotal evidence for both LoA and life after death. Is science really the last word on such matters, unless of course you believe it is?

I take it also that you believe that channeling is a fraud. It is after all, a channeled entity that promotes LoA. It's alright if you do, but such thinking seems to lean one towards a completely material universe. I don't know how one can get to an alignment with Source and a truly awakened consciousness without a greater reality to wake up into. You've read a good deal on NDE's. How is physical proof the only thing that matters when it comes to consciousness? How is it that fields of flowers and cities of light can be created in one realm with a thought and not realize that such is a fundamental construct of creative consciousness applicable in some degree to all worlds of experience?

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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby karmarider » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:53 pm

erict wrote:Well, I'm not making any assumptions. This started as a response to the essay by Ananda, and anyone who reads it can see that it is an expression of closed-mindedness toward the possibility of the validity of the LOA principles, and not only that, it is quite judgmental and critical. Most of all, it is the attitude of spiritual self-righteousness and arrogance that I take issue with.


Hehe, well I didn't read Ananda's post. I don't go into particular theories and debates and terminology--from what I see, it's pretty easy to cling to particular terminology and beliefs and mental states. I've seen it in my own experience--the tendency to cling to blissful states and declare victory, and the tendency to explain non-duality in particular terminology and the tendency to believe--these have all been obstacles in direct experience.

I was responding to you, in the context of the conversation we started in PM.

As you've pointed out, there can be arrogance in particular view points and terminology and theories. When that happens, whatever doesn't fit into the mind with a satisfying click is dismissed.

In my experience the exploration of non-duality takes observation, honesty and willingness.

And with that I've discovered that beliefs are not it. No belief is right--which is not to say that any particular belief is true or false. It says that the entire structure of beliefs is wobbly, centered around the delusional me.

And that includes the theories and terminology around awakening and oneness which are often spouted here.

The law of attraction as a belief system is actually a very good example of what happens when there is clinging to beliefs. The craze had been explosive, though it does seem to fading now. The energy of wanting to believe is very strong and dogmatically defended.

But in motivation, it's no different than the drive which pushes people into religion and hardened spiritual concepts. It's no different from the "self-evident" truths that the earth was flat, or the universe revolves around the earth, or God, or heaven and hell, or karma, or the theories and particular terminology of awakening and oneness that are often discussed here. These tendency to believe is an obstacle.

It's far more instructive to investigate the motivation behind these beliefs. The motivation comes from a deep desire of the ego to have an ordered, predictable, controllable reality.

As far as manifestation goes, there is something to it. This isn't a belief or theory. It's actually part of every one's direct experience. When our world is full of fear, conditioning, beliefs, that's life we attract. If we want to see that, the law of attraction is no help, and in fact it is dangerously misleading. It suggests that you can replace your fearful self with positive desires.

When life isn't working, people are free to sit down and visualize a Ferrari and a girlfriend and money and success.

But in my experience, it's far more useful to allow, watch, develop honesty and look inside.
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby karmarider » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:43 pm

Sighclone wrote:Welcome back, Kaushik!
...

Untestable. Therefore unprovable. Therefore much ado about nothing.

Andy


Thanks, Andy, Good to be back.

Yes, the LOA, like the question of free will, is ultimately undecidable.

But then so is reading someone's future in animal entrails.

It's not really the truth or falsity of the manifestation model. It's everyone's direct experience that there is something to this, the most obvious being that most of us are highly identified with thoughts, and this attracts suffering and discontent.

It's more about the dogma of popular incarnation of the LOA. It's dangerously misleading.
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:31 pm

Karmarider, I think you miss the entire point on beliefs. Yes beliefs can be dismissed, but isn't it only through the power of other beliefs that one does the dismissing. Can you or anyone even post a response on this board without relying on a belief to form a coherent response? I've yet to see anyone post in this forum that didn't do so as a result of their beliefs. Your entire post was an expression of your beliefs about the nature of consciousness. I see it as delusion to perceive oneself to be belief free.

So here's the thing, if we are honest enough to admit that beliefs can be changed but not entirely eliminated, then what we are truly dealing with is the conscious perspective that beliefs create. And beyond one's simple conscious perspective there appear to be laws of energy - cause and effect - that can transform the experience of being. Now that is a conversation worth having. But denial in the face of such obvious reality just gets in the way.

You wrote:
In my experience the exploration of non-duality takes observation, honesty and willingness.


This is a high bar to maintain. Can you let go of your bias(beliefs) and explore the deeper understanding of LoA? You've made some very derogatory and definitive statements calling LoA a "craze" and equating those interested as flat earthers. Is this because you know the truth, or because you hold very strong, albeit threatened, beliefs? It's dangerous to make such consciousness crystallizing accusations. It tends to make one's own beliefs into sacred cows that are all that much harder to see beyond. I do hope you don't fall into this trap.

I support the essential teachings of non-duality, but I also do not see a fatal conflict with LoA. How is this possible? Or is it?

Curiously, LoA is quite ancient. In Mathew 21:22 it says:
"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive."
It seems Jesus was a crazed, flat earther as well. :shock:



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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby Ralph » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:17 pm

"Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it."

— Voltaire
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby hanss » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Can you let go of your bias(beliefs) and explore the deeper understanding of LoA?
I believe that the earth is a cube, but I'm trying to stay open :) I have started to dig a little in to this and have a question, there is talk about staying in the Vortex and get into it. Higher frequency, no negativity and so on. Where there is alignment with Source. I have never heard of this before but I'm thinking... Is being in the field of Vortex instead of outside the same thing as being in the Now instead of lost in negative compulsive thinking? Can't find the words, trying to compare with non-duality. When we cube-earthers, non-dualists, buddists or whatever are not run by the mind/ego and in a state of non-judging, non-attaching free flowing life with gratitude, situations to handle instead of problems, is that not the same as "alignment with Source"? And being outside of and far from the Vortex is sort of total identification with ego and low level of consciousness? Always inside the Vortex means in "our" language enlightenment and always in the flow/present moment?
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby karmarider » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:23 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Karmarider, I think you miss the entire point on beliefs. Yes beliefs can be dismissed, but isn't it only through the power of other beliefs that one does the dismissing. ...


hmm, that's the whole point. You're under a basic misconception, that you have to use the "power of other beliefs" to dismiss negative beliefs. To tell people that they can replace their negative beliefs and emotions with positive thoughts and beautiful beliefs is dangerously misleading.

What's considered negative can be allowed and watched and released.


This is a high bar to maintain. Can you let go of your bias(beliefs) and explore the deeper understanding of LoA?


Why? That's like saying that I should be open enough to get a deeper understanding of how to read animal entrails, or to study Catholicism.

I don't know how the universe works, but I do know that the answers are not in trying to replace whatever is unworkable with positive thinking or energized desires. I can remain completely open without feeling the crazy energy to submerge the negative. It's much more instructive to look at the tendency to run to belief systems.

If in the open space, what emerges is similar to what Mckenna says about manifestation, that would be fine.

I support the essential teachings of non-duality, but I also do not see a fatal conflict with LoA. How is this possible? Or is it?


There is the very clear conflict in the confusion that what is considered negative in us can be covered up by a positive thinking and energized desires.
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby karmarider » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:29 pm

hanss wrote: I believe that the earth is a cube


Your belief is completely wrong. It's a tetrahedron.

:)

...but I'm trying to stay open :) I have started to dig a little in to this and have a question, there is talk about staying in the Vortex and get into it. Higher frequency, no negativity and so on. Where there is alignment with Source. I have never heard of this before but I'm thinking... Is being in the field of Vortex instead of outside the same thing as being in the Now instead of lost in negative compulsive thinking? Can't find the words, trying to compare with non-duality. When we cube-earthers, non-dualists, buddists or whatever are not run by the mind/ego and in a state of non-judging, non-attaching free flowing life with gratitude, situations to handle instead of problems, is that not the same as "alignment with Source"? And being outside of and far from the Vortex is sort of total identification with ego and low level of consciousness? Always inside the Vortex means in "our" language enlightenment and always in the flow/present moment?


Sounds simple, doesn't it?
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:31 pm

karmarider wrote:I don't know how the universe works

Yet you are willing comment on it as if you do.

To tell people that they can replace their negative beliefs and emotions with positive thoughts and beautiful beliefs is dangerously misleading.


Really? How so?
Are you now going to tell me what you believe to be true?
I look forward to hearing how dangerous LoA is from someone who has never actually looked into it. Will you say anything other than vague and unfounded assertions?

And how dangerous is it to encourage people, especially young and inexperienced ones, to kill off their egos and sense of self without a replacement of living context? Yet you do this when you isolate the concept of 'no me'. When have you offered the next step? Where do you explain the context of 'no me'?

What's considered negative can be allowed and watched and released.

Do you not say this because you believe it to be true? Where is the proof? There is none. There may be anecdotal evidence, but there is plenty of that in nearly all belief systems.

Why? That's like saying that I should be open enough to get a deeper understanding of how to read animal entrails, or to study Catholicism.

So, you admit you actually know nothing about it from direct investigation, yet you are willing to say the most abusive things possible in support of your ignorance. What's the point in that? Are you so wise and superior that it justifies belittling others? And you even put Catholicism in the category of reading entrails? Curious indeed. Some very wise and loving people came out of Catholicism. And while its flaws are legendary, it hardly merits such contempt.

There is the very clear conflict in the confusion that what is considered negative in us can be covered up by a positive thinking and energized desires.

Who said anything about covering it up? You are making strawmen to slay. But as you have not actually looked into it it's understandable that you would mischaracterize it. If I may offer this help - negative thoughts and emotions are not covered up, they are simply cut off from their source of energy - repetitive negative thought. Kind of like being "allowed and watched and released". But rather than simply sitting in nothingness after the consciousness has been freed, and loosing all sense of value and purpose like so many have complained about on this very forum, it can be replaced consciously and intentionally with those experiences in life that bring appreciation. It's possible to live an inspired life rather than a painful and depressed one, or for that matter a blissfully empty one. Good luck with empty being blissful for very long.

You are welcome to 'no me' mentality.
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby erict » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:38 pm

Conversations with God wrote:Yet you don’t want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it. This is the greatest barrier to your enlightenment. You think you already know the truth! You think you already understand how it is. So you agree with everything you see or hear or read that falls into the paradigm of your understanding, and reject everything which does not.
"Be sincere; don't ask questions out of mere interest. Ask dangerous questions—the ones whose answers could change your life."
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby autumnsphere » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:42 pm

hanss wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:Can you let go of your bias(beliefs) and explore the deeper understanding of LoA?
I believe that the earth is a cube, but I'm trying to stay open :) I have started to dig a little in to this and have a question, there is talk about staying in the Vortex and get into it. Higher frequency, no negativity and so on. Where there is alignment with Source. I have never heard of this before but I'm thinking... Is being in the field of Vortex instead of outside the same thing as being in the Now instead of lost in negative compulsive thinking? Can't find the words, trying to compare with non-duality. When we cube-earthers, non-dualists, buddists or whatever are not run by the mind/ego and in a state of non-judging, non-attaching free flowing life with gratitude, situations to handle instead of problems, is that not the same as "alignment with Source"? And being outside of and far from the Vortex is sort of total identification with ego and low level of consciousness? Always inside the Vortex means in "our" language enlightenment and always in the flow/present moment?


OK, honestly, "alignment with Source" and "Vortex" are already starting to make me sick as expressions BUT this is exactly what I think, thanks for expressing it.
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby autumnsphere » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:53 pm

karmarider wrote:I don't know how the universe works, but I do know that the answers are not in trying to replace whatever is unworkable with positive thinking or energized desires. I can remain completely open without feeling the crazy energy to submerge the negative. It's much more instructive to look at the tendency to run to belief systems.


Yep, wake up and then you can have as many positive thoughts as you wish. ;)

“I guess it makes more sense to figure out what’s true first, or else what does it matter?” she says. “First things first, right? I mean, once I figure out what’s true I can still try to achieve unity consciousness, right?”

“Wow,” I laugh appreciatively, “good answer. Yes, figure out what’s true and then you can do whatever you want.”

- Jed


But still, Kaushik, I think WW has a point here...that everything we write is some sort of belief. Maybe the key is to know we're all make-believe pretending figurines... The other day I had a little realization: if the world is really non-dual, then thinking (i.e. believing) is useless, obsolete.
"If the mind subsides, the whole world subsides."
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby snowheight » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:04 am

erict wrote:
If the thought of lack – whether it
be money, recognition, or love – has become part of who you think you are,
you will always experience lack.



Here is one interpretation of that statement: if you feel a lack of money it doesn't matter how much you have or at what rate you earn it you will always feel this lack and the drive to make more. Even after you have a huge house, big car, more possessions that you could ever use and more cash in the bank than you could ever spend then you will STILL keep on working, still keep on acquiring. You will always be poor.

Here is another interpretation of that statement: stop thinking you are poor and you will become rich. Believe you are rich and eventually money will flow to you.

eric: which of these do you honestly think most people hear when they are introduced to the LOA? Do you see any potential for exploitation here? Do you see the possibility for real genuine material harm to come to people who might apparently fall victim to such apparent exploitation?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: The Law of Confusion- an essay

Postby erict » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:09 am

Webwanderer wrote:
karmarider wrote:There is the very clear conflict in the confusion that what is considered negative in us can be covered up by a positive thinking and energized desires.

Who said anything about covering it up? You are making strawmen to slay. But as you have not actually looked into it it's understandable that you would mischaracterize it. If I may offer this help - negative thoughts and emotions are not covered up, they are simply cut off from their source of energy - repetitive negative thought. Kind of like being "allowed and watched and released". But rather than simply sitting in nothingness after the consciousness has been freed, and loosing all sense of value and purpose like so many have complained about on this very forum, it can be replaced consciously and intentionally with those experiences in life that bring appreciation. It's possible to live an inspired life rather than a painful and depressed one, or for that matter a blissfully empty one. Good luck with empty being blissful for very long.


I'd like to add/clarify a bit on this from my own understanding of the teachings of Abraham-hicks.

You are encouraged firstly to become aware of your thoughts and sensitive to your emotions. Your emotions within the context of the LoA are communication from your inner being / soul, where negativity indicates you are out of alignment with it, and positive emotions indicate alignment. Once you are aware of negative emotions, you are then encouraged, first of all to make peace with wherever you are and whatever you are experiencing, without offering unnecessary resistance. Then as you recognize your thoughts and emotional responses not as the truth about your life, but as guidance from a higher/deeper part of your being, you can begin to move in the direction of alignment with yourself.

People often wonder about the meaning of life or what they should do with their lives. According to the LoA, each and every one of us is an extension of something greater, the very source from which we come (the unmanifested, as Tolle refers to it?). And as an extension of something far greater than this body and mind, we are still a part of it, connected to it, and offered guidance from it. The LoA is first and foremost about learning to recognize this guidance and bringing the body, mind and spirit/soul/inner being into alignment, where the natural flow of your life is not artificially impeded through conflict between these 3 parts. The body is doing one thing, while the mind is in conflict with the actions of the body and none of of it has anything to do with the greater intention of the individual soul.

I believe this is the root of the cause of so much suffering, so much physical, psychological and emotional pain in the world. That is not to say, that otherwise life does not have its painful moments off loss, cycles of destruction and death, etc. and that true peace can be found in the physical world, it probably can't. But within the context of life in the physical world, we don't have to experience so much self-created suffering.

None of what I described above comes to represent the truth about life. It is a model I think is worth exploring, in the context of life in the physical world. It enables you to discover an individual, personal sense of purpose and guidance as you move through life.
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