Combining E. Tolle and Law of Attraction into one philosophy

[rocknroll]

It seems like there are two popular schools of thought: Law of Attraction (creating with thoughts and beliefs) and Spiritual Awakening (becoming free from thoughts, thoughts are illusory). There seem to be some conflicts between the ideas but there is also remarkable common ground and many people believe that ultimately they make a good team.

I have some questions that are puzzling me that I would like to ask you. I would also like to have conversation here about the potentiality of combining the two ideas into one and end the confusion about this. In fact some seem to have already done that, but I'm still puzzling anyway

In fact now I'm only going to bring up two biggest conflicts that are bugging me:
1) Thoughts are powerful and create reality VS Thoughts are false and illusory thing, nothing but delusion and a thing to be overcome
2) Creating positive beliefs VS no beliefs at all

Here are my current thoughts, feel free to comment:

1) LOA and our responsibility in creating our own outer-reality seems to be self-evident to me. There is so much teachings about it, successful people tend to promote it, it has had big affect on my life already and I've seen many lives changing for better when consciously creating a mindset that matches ones desires of life. I've noticed that the ones who get the benefits from this are also the ones who gain awareness of ones thoughts and beliefs in the process and start living more in the moment, which would mean of course, awakening at least to some extent. The proof is in the pudding and this thing works in real life, though some people have tried and failed and would disagree with me. LOA goes deeper than thoughts, because the foundation is the state of allowing and acceptance and you must FEEL and BELIEVE that you already have whatever it is that you desire. You can't manifest something that you don't have already. This is why it seems to me and some others that ET and LOA could make a perfect team.

So it seems to work in the real world. Thoughts really have some kind of power over our outer world at least to some degree. Inner becomes outer, that's what Eckhart and LOA both say. Could it be so simple that thoughts are just tools to create outer things in the playfield of life? They're not who we are but they are our magnificent tool to create? So Eckhart Tolle teaches awakening and LOA teaches practical use of mind to create things in our lives, which works best when you are awakened?


2) Beliefs are just build-up thought patterns as far as I understand this. In LOA circles it's popular idea that creating a desired belief system is the way to get what we want in this life. Most of us have belief systems that are working against us and the idea is simply to change that belief system to work FOR us. Positive beliefs. It's undeniably true that we have a subconscious picture of ourselves as a person and we act out the way we see ourselves.

This I believe is where the two schools of thought conflict most. In LOA circles it's a popular idea that we simply should change our beliefs or our picture of ourselves to get what we want in life. This makes perfect sense too and again it appears to work in the real world. Beliefs will make you or break you and you have the power to choose your beliefs. Then Eckhart Tolle and most other spiritual teachers teach that one should get rid of all beliefs and all identification with the picture and idea of "little me". OSHO says that whoever gives you a belief system is your enemy. He also said once that he has been "nothing" for 20 years. No personality, no identity, nothing.

The question is, if we shouldn’t create beliefs, then how are we supposed to achieve our goals and visions? You have to BELIEVE that it will happen don't you? Some of us still have high goals and visions (a ”big” outer purpose) even after awakening and it’s not from the ego. We have to do what we need to do in that realm to get where we want to be. LOA, creating effective beliefs and manipulating thoughts and attitudes simply appear to work in the real world. Even Eckhart quoted from Bible the classic 'Whatever you ask in prayer, BELIEVE that you have received it, and it will be yours.”

Can a spiritually awakened being have any beliefs about anything? You either believe that you will succeed or you don't believe it. Or does spiritually awakened being somehow drop the whole "believing-dimension" out of the equation? Belief seems to be part of the recipe for reaching goals in real life, proof is again in the pudding.

Can I believe in something but just not identify with it, not put any "self" to it? Could it be that simple?

I'm a musician / performer and I have a good vision of what I will be like, how I will talk, how I will act on stage, what my outer image is like and I'm moving towards that self-image. Previously I have identified with this stuff, put some "self" into it, but now I wonder if I can do all that without identifying it as "me"? It would seem ridiculous that I would lose some ability by becoming conscious, so my ego is probably just tricking me


So there were my current thoughts about it. What do you guys think? What are your thoughts about combining these two schools of thought? There seems to be so much common ground and people are already combining them so I can't help thinking that they belong together.

[xxx]

You're over-thinking.

I am going to try to converge LOA and ET into one basic philosophy right now:

Gain control of your egoic thoughts, and use them as tools to manifest whatever reality you truly want.

When you sit down to really figure out what you truly want-- you realize that you already have it, which again is where LOA and ET converge.

Some modern walks of life are absurdly difficult to enjoy. But peace comes from within, and spreads like wild-fire, and is attainable for all.

"Can a spiritually awakened being have any beliefs about anything?" No. Do not become attached to any particular position. it closes your mind.

"I'm a musician / performer and I have a good vision of what I will be like, how I will talk, how I will act on stage, what my outer image is like and I'm moving towards that self-image. Previously I have identified with this stuff, put some "self" into it, but now I wonder if I can do all that without identifying it as "me"? It would seem ridiculous that I would lose some ability by becoming conscious, so my ego is probably just tricking me "

Let all of that go, enter the present, discard previous performances, believe in your abilities and enjoy your time on stage to the fullest.

There is no right way or wrong way. You get this life, don't spend it psycho-analyzing yourself. Break a leg.

[autumnsphere]

Gain control of egoic thoughts?

[Webwanderer]

Gain control of egoic thoughts?

Well yes. Emotions combine with thoughts to reinforce the thoughts that stimulated the emotions. It's a vicious circle that so many experiencing depression, all manor of habitual thinking, can attest to. What I like about LOA is that it offers a way out of such a negative feeling cycle and into a more enjoyable one. Make no mistake, it's still a thought construct, but it may well be amenable to better quality of experience.

The mind seems to thrive on beliefs. So how does one create more pleasant beliefs that can have positive effects on one's experience? In LOA, as well as simple common sense, a belief is just a thought repeated so often it's taken as truth. And because consciousness by nature is creative, life responds in kind to what we believe to be true, even if only through being filtered by the belief. I've not been a big fan of affirmations as a whole, but it seems when applied within an appropriate feeling structure, they can over time form the basis for more dominate beliefs.

Like any good cook knows however, there is a recipe that brings a desired result, while deviating from it may not. If it says bake for 1hr @450 and you bake for 15min @300 it's certain that your efforts will fail. But it's not the fault of the recipe if it's not followed.

According to LOA, to effectively form new belief structures that bring more positive experience to one's life, one must begin from a feel good position. It would seem the ideal would be resting in the clarity of presence while recognizing the Source essence of our natural state. Okay, for some that may be a lot. But the closer one can get to that the more powerful one's thoughts are likely to be in forming new creative beliefs. Remember, beliefs are creative regardless of their nature, and emotions are what focuses and powers them bringing them into experience. This seems to be the effective essence of the Great Freedom teachings. "Short moments, repeated often, become continuous." Because these moments align us with source, and feel good emotions abound in these moments, they create beliefs and experiences that support ever greater clarity.

LOA adds the dimension of desire. While in this state of feel good clarity, one may also infuse intentional thoughts with this feel good energy and bring about their manifestation in our experience. As the process is repeated over and over it eventually becomes the dominate paradigm over previously existing belief structures. LOA says that if done 'religiously' a shift in beliefs can be accomplished in less than 30 days - but why count? It's important to remember that it is one's alignment with Source, with Essence, that truly powers this creative shift.

Source is in the process of creating in the physical expression. As we are Source expressed, it is through us that Source is creating the physical realm. Our limited free will allows us to desire whatever we wish, but like any construction process it may be a little messy until it's all cleaned up. Again, according to LOA, our desires are useful to the Creative flow - whatever they are. The point from the Greater Perspective isn't whether one gets this or that, but rather to add experiential structure to this unique world of consciousness. In some ways we are the tip of the spear - Source, individualized, forming ever new realms to explore.

Okay, I know this may seem a bit out there. I confess it's an understanding in progress. It may seem a stretch for the non-dualist within us, but I don't see a fatal conflict. It takes an expanded perspective to make it work, but after all, isn't that what we're here for?

Apologies for the meandering. I really didn't know where I was headed when I started this post. Like so much here on this forum, the writing of our insights help bring greater clarity to them - or maybe just expose them.

WW

[autumnsphere]

But this shift in beliefs is not magic, it's simple learning. And yes, of course your reality will seem better if it seems better. How do you know you're not fitting experiences to your beliefs? How do you know this is a law and not just a positive perspective?

Well yes. Emotions combine with thoughts to reinforce the thoughts that stimulated the emotions. It's a vicious circle that so many experiencing depression, all manor of habitual thinking, can attest to.

There's a much simpler way to deal with this and it's not a system of beliefs - releasing. The emotional thought loop cannot be controlled. Control = resistance and whatever you resist persists. You allow and let go. Beliefs are extremely personal which means there is a threat of losing them, there is a need to defend them, there is a tendency to get offended when someone doubts them... Instead of letting go here you're piling more and more attachments on and they are supposed to help you?

Look, maybe I'm missing something, maybe the LoA really works when you're free of any concepts, fears, resistance. But believing in it is complicating things. Imho.

[Webwanderer]

But this shift in beliefs is not magic, it's simple learning. And yes, of course your reality will seem better if it seems better. How do you know you're not fitting experiences to your beliefs? How do you know this is a law and not just a positive perspective?

Remember however, that reality is more a matter of consciousness rather than substance. Substance is the appearance of consciousness patterns. If we are talking about attracting a more pleasant experience of living, conditioning our thoughts to unconsciously repeat patterns of positive perceptions will automatically bring more positive experience simply because there are many ways of perceiving any given event.

LOA however is more than that. It is based on the creative potential of Source. As stated in the 'Law', Source creates to some degree through the consciousness it manifests in the physical realm as the expressed individualized beings that we are. As there is no right or wrong from the context of Source, it is only a matter of cause and effect and finding the most appropriate method of unfolding this unique venue of experience. So by focusing on alignment with Source, through the many portals pointed to by generations of enlightened ones who understood what alignment meant, one can create to some significant degree the experience of life they desire by energizing the thoughts they wish to experience. Source is that energizing factor.

Understand, I'm not trying to carry the water for LOA here, but in exploring its implications I find a clarity of being that is quite satisfying. I only suggest, as in all pursuits of consciousness understanding, that you look for yourself.

There's a much simpler way to deal with this and it's not a system of beliefs - releasing.

I can't argue with the value of releasing, but beliefs are not the enemy either. So long as one understands that beliefs can be created and that they are creative, there is no reason to be unconsciously ruled by them. At one time I believed in a specified 'me' that I had adopted unknowingly through the early years of my development. It wasn't an identification that I particularly liked. Since recognizing it was simply an adopted thought structure, I have been able to drop my attachment to it and recreate that image in a way that I find preferable. It remains a work in progress. I know however, it is simply a functional persona however it is formed. I can never be the structure itself, as I am the consciousness that forms it.

The emotional thought loop cannot be controlled. Control = resistance and whatever you resist persists.

Maybe this too is simply a belief, and that the reason we cannot control it is because we believe we can't. There is enough experiential history in it that proof is not hard to find. But maybe it's just a created truism that persist because of our continued belief in it. That emotional thought loop may have considerable momentum but consistently nudging it from a position of power can eventually turn its course. Source is that power. Is there anything that Source cannot alter? It is after all just consciousness. A simple change of the Divine Mind and a new paradigm may be created.

WW

[Webwanderer]

I'd like to add some further consideration on the creative nature thoughts. We are in essence consciousness, awareness. If oneness is the essential state as has been suggested here and throughout history, then that oneness is fundamentally an aspect of Source. We live consciously in a physical universe - call it a physical perspective of consciousness. If Source is creating this physical realm, what is Its methodology? It would seem in part, that Source, expressing through the beingness of each individualized consciousness, uses the thought creating potential of that individualized beingness to explore the possibilities of physical experience.

If that, or something like it, is the case, then what we are is the tip of the creative spear. All of our thoughts and expressions are simply Source going through Its creative regimen as us. Our individualized perspective brings a necessary disparity to the process to insure the greatest possible range of physical experience. But our thoughts and experiences are the creative edge of the evolving physical expression. Of course I'm not sure how accurate any of this consideration is, but it makes for a most enjoyable point of view.

WW

[autumnsphere]

Maybe this too is simply a belief, and that the reason we cannot control it is because we believe we can't.

This sounds a bit too "religious", I'm not buying it.

There is enough experiential history in it that proof is not hard to find. But maybe it's just a created truism that persist because of our continued belief in it. That emotional thought loop may have considerable momentum but consistently nudging it from a position of power can eventually turn its course.

Now...this is where Tolle and the LoA part ways:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8kA4eu_r88

It would seem in part, that Source, expressing through the beingness of each individualized consciousness, uses the thought creating potential of that individualized beingness to explore the possibilities of physical experience.

Lovely, I like that. It makes sense this way, yes. Check these two songs out:

Pain of Salvation - Be

I am
I am
I am

I was not
then I came to be
I cannot remember NOT being
But I may have traveled far
very far
to get here

Maybe I was formed in this silent darkness
From this silent darkness
BY this silent darkness

To become is just like falling asleep
You never know exactly when it happens
The transition
The magic
And you think, if you could only recall that exact moment
Of crossing the line
Then you would understand everything
You would see it all

Perhaps I was always
Forever here…
And I just forgot
I imagine Eternity would have that effect
Would cause a certain amount of drifting
Like omnipresence would demand omniabsence

Somehow I seem to have this predestined hunger for knowledge
A talent for seeing patterns and finding correlations
But I lack context

Who I am?
In the back of my awareness I find words
I will call myself…
GOD
And I will spend the rest of forever
Trying to figure out who I am

Trying to understand the system of Life
Trying to understand myself
I created the world to be an image of myself, of my mind

All of these thoughts, all of these doubts and hopes
Inside
I took out to form a new breed
A new way to be
And now I am many, so many

So much larger than ever I were
Yet, at the same time
So much smaller and more vulnarable

They all carry shards of the whole
Together they become me
I see them interact, develop
I see them take different sides
As were they different minds
Believers of different ways, and different gods

I think they will teach me something

Pain of Salvation - Be

[hanss]

Gain control of egoic thoughts?

Well yes. Emotions combine with thoughts to reinforce the thoughts that stimulated the emotions. It's a vicious circle that so many experiencing depression, all manor of habitual thinking, can attest to. What I like about LOA is that it offers a way out of such a negative feeling cycle and into a more enjoyable one. Make no mistake, it's still a thought construct, but it may well be amenable to better quality of experience.

The mind seems to thrive on beliefs. So how does one create more pleasant beliefs that can have positive effects on one's experience? In LOA, as well as simple common sense, a belief is just a thought repeated so often it's taken as truth. And because consciousness by nature is creative, life responds in kind to what we believe to be true, even if only through being filtered by the belief. I've not been a big fan of affirmations as a whole, but it seems when applied within an appropriate feeling structure, they can over time form the basis for more dominate beliefs.

Like any good cook knows however, there is a recipe that brings a desired result, while deviating from it may not. If it says bake for 1hr @450 and you bake for 15min @300 it's certain that your efforts will fail. But it's not the fault of the recipe if it's not followed.

According to LOA, to effectively form new belief structures that bring more positive experience to one's life, one must begin from a feel good position. It would seem the ideal would be resting in the clarity of presence while recognizing the Source essence of our natural state. Okay, for some that may be a lot. But the closer one can get to that the more powerful one's thoughts are likely to be in forming new creative beliefs. Remember, beliefs are creative regardless of their nature, and emotions are what focuses and powers them bringing them into experience. This seems to be the effective essence of the Great Freedom teachings. "Short moments, repeated often, become continuous." Because these moments align us with source, and feel good emotions abound in these moments, they create beliefs and experiences that support ever greater clarity.

LOA adds the dimension of desire. While in this state of feel good clarity, one may also infuse intentional thoughts with this feel good energy and bring about their manifestation in our experience. As the process is repeated over and over it eventually becomes the dominate paradigm over previously existing belief structures. LOA says that if done 'religiously' a shift in beliefs can be accomplished in less than 30 days - but why count? It's important to remember that it is one's alignment with Source, with Essence, that truly powers this creative shift.

Source is in the process of creating in the physical expression. As we are Source expressed, it is through us that Source is creating the physical realm. Our limited free will allows us to desire whatever we wish, but like any construction process it may be a little messy until it's all cleaned up. Again, according to LOA, our desires are useful to the Creative flow - whatever they are. The point from the Greater Perspective isn't whether one gets this or that, but rather to add experiential structure to this unique world of consciousness. In some ways we are the tip of the spear - Source, individualized, forming ever new realms to explore.

Okay, I know this may seem a bit out there. I confess it's an understanding in progress. It may seem a stretch for the non-dualist within us, but I don't see a fatal conflict. It takes an expanded perspective to make it work, but after all, isn't that what we're here for?

Apologies for the meandering. I really didn't know where I was headed when I started this post. Like so much here on this forum, the writing of our insights help bring greater clarity to them - or maybe just expose them.

WW

[autumnsphere]

sarcasm tag?

[hanss]

sarcasm tag?

[autumnsphere]

nevermind.

[xxx]

Maybe it is a religious questions.

I believe that I choose to be who I am.

I believe my choices are conscious and guided by me.

I believe much about life is completely random, but I am not random- I am conscious.

or maybe I just have a very good imagination...

Experimentally, the LOA does not work for me. I cannot 'attract' a so much as a donut. But I believe that I can work towards goals and fulfill them, and in that way the idea of the LOA is just common sense. I have actually been able to buy the exact donut that I was trying to attract. Is that the LOA? Realizing that you can fulfill your own needs is inredibly empowering.

I have been able to consciously decide to be happy and satisfied, whether this is Tolle or LOA doesn't matter much to me.

The question is, can you identify goals worthy of you?

[snowheight]

Wanderer,

I have to say that your posts in this thread are quite powerful. The depth of the texture of your presentation points up the heart of the LoA and distinguishes it from that common mis-perception of it as taken to task by Ananda here.

What fits here at this point in the conversation are Tolle's pointers to the effect that maintaining our felt connection with Source is most important when things go wrong.

Remember however, that reality is more a matter of consciousness rather than substance. Substance is the appearance of consciousness patterns. If we are talking about attracting a more pleasant experience of living, conditioning our thoughts to unconsciously repeat patterns of positive perceptions will automatically bring more positive experience simply because there are many ways of perceiving any given event.

Consider what happens to the practitioner in a time of sudden crises. Some random event such as a mugging or the loss of a job or the sudden death of someone close in an accident or the diagnosis of someone relatively young with a terminal disease.

Now first of all, I have to apologize for interjecting this into the thread. It is not my intention to shock or to deliberately evoke negativity or to attack the Law of Attraction. I do offer an overt criticism of the philosophy at the very end of the post based on this question, but even if this is ignored, the question raised does not disappear.

In facing this though (the fact and the almost inevitability of tragedy) we see the weakness of any systematized belief or code for life --is it possible to reduce the contradictions of reality down to any system of conceptualization, no matter how well supported by observation? At the heart of the LoA, if we look deeply enough, is the simplicity of the Golden Rule ... and who wants to argue about that? The problem with rules, however, are the inevitable exceptions. Unfortunately, not every mirror reflects back love with love.

I've read some contributors here deflect this scenario onto a criticism of the practice of seeking or:

attracting a more pleasant experience of living

... but I'm not in complete agreement with them -- TPON and ANE repeat the concept that there are certain internal states of positive emotion and felt physical well-being which point to our connection with Source. While I've seen Mooji disagree with this notion and of course it is possible to replicate these states temporarily with chemicals, it has been my direct experience to the contrary, in that recognition of true nature actually cured me of anxiety that while debilitating, had been unnoticed, or rather, undiagnosed.

But where does suppressing internal strife or avoiding all worldly discomfort lead? Note that this is not a question specific to the LoA, but perhaps applicable to this last facet of your presentation about it:

conditioning our thoughts to unconsciously repeat patterns of positive perceptions will automatically bring more positive experience simply because there are many ways of perceiving any given event.

The many ways of perceiving any given event truly are, in the final analysis, what is meant with the assertion that we "create our own reality", and that is some true wisdom that you've expressed here in this thread Wanderer ... but I would observe that any conditioning, even positive conditioning, is something that stands between ourselves and direct experience.

Now let us consider that one important exception to this rule that you've already alluded to, the wonderful manifestation of greatfreedom.org. There are actually several threads on this topic here on the forum independent of that site, and the ultimate conclusion here is that this identifies a paradox: it seems that we can "train ourselves to be Present" by remaning "mindful" -- in this we are conditioning ourselves to abandon conditioning.

Well ... you know what I have to say about a paradox ... any real paradox is just a restatement of the fundamental paradox of existence and if approached from a specific perspective (that of living it), the paradox both dissolves and illuminates at the same time. Perhaps the paradox inherent in the LoA is that it works sometimes and while it might appeal to our innate sense of symmetry and decency it is easily demonstrated to be a practical fallacy in any sort of absolute sense.

[Sighclone]

conditioning our thoughts to unconsciously repeat patterns of positive perceptions will automatically bring more positive experience simply because there are many ways of perceiving any given event.

This concept of essentially "being good to yourself" is discussed at length in Buddha's Brain by Hanson and Mendius, with a firm foundation in modern neuroscience. This book is about changing your brain chemistry through habits and thinking -- feeding the "wolf of love" as opposed to the "wolf of hate." I highly recommend it to those who would like a scientific basis for much of what we talk about in this forum.

Andy