...and other natural laws

[smiileyjen101]

Zen emphasizes experiential wisdom in the attainment of enlightenment. As such, it de-emphasizes theoretical knowledge in favor of direct self-realization through meditation and dharma practice.

....

Dharma (help·info) (Sanskrit: धर्म dhárma, Pali: धम्म dhamma; lit. that which upholds or supports) means Law or Natural Law (as in the natural order of things) and is a concept of central importance in Indian philosophy and religion. In the context of Hinduism, it refers to one's personal obligations, calling and duties,[1] and a Hindu's dharma is affected by the person's age, caste, class, occupation, and gender.[2] In modern Indian languages it can refer simply to a person's religion, depending on the context.

The idea of dharma as duty or propriety derives from an idea found in India's ancient legal and religious texts that there is a divinely instituted natural order of things (rta) and justice, social harmony and human happiness require that human beings discern and live in a manner appropriate to the requirements of that order.

...The antonym of dharma is adharma meaning unnatural or immoral.
from wiki

From LOA thread: The quality of the creation and the process of it is also impacted upon by the process and awareness of it (and my personal thingy whether the resonance of it is love-expansion/fear-contraction). But, all things are possible - and literally permissable in the grand scale.

...Dan Millman's book 'The Life You Were Born to Live' discusses a variety of 'laws', how to recognise them in action and to employ them consciously when aware of their energy in action - but remembering it's all a part of the 'whole' of which we are not privvy with our torches in the warehouse, and that they interact with each other in the same spiderweb of energy - no different to how all the planets, stars etc or any ecosystem coexists while constantly in a state of creation and expansion and contraction.

Just within that book are great discussions on many of the things that whether you 'believe' or understand them or not have energy flows that are part of the whole dance. Just as we understand and use gravity or the law of sow/reap for farming/harvesting they will happen whether you understand or employ them or not.

Consciousness ET style would suggest that you might be aware of them, but then they become a fabric of your living, just as gravity is.

Millman discusses the Laws of.... flexibility, choices, responsibility, balance, process, patterns, discipline, perfection, the present moment, no judgment, faith, expectations, honesty, higher will, intuition, action, cycles.

LOA dances with, above, under, within, around all of them, and all of us and every thing past present and future, and all of them and more do the same all the time.

Within the discussions on LOA and on awareness generally ... is there an understanding of the 'balance' of natural laws at work seamlessly interacting, even if invisibly?

Any notions on some of these other 'laws' - eg: discussions about intuition in other threads, can understanding of the law/s of responsibility, discipline, no judgement , reciprocity etc be seen as also at work?

In looking to see the basis of Zen (after reading Iron Cow of Zen discussion) I realised many native/indigenous/ancient cultural understandings were /are a different path to the same place (of course ; )

So how aware are you of natural laws in constant motion?

[runstrails]

Hi Jen,
Thanks for your well thought out post.

Millman discusses the Laws of.... flexibility, choices, responsibility, balance, process, patterns, discipline, perfection, the present moment, no judgment, faith, expectations, honesty, higher will, intuition, action, cycles.
So how aware are you of natural laws in constant motion?

My question is a fairly basic one. Why should we be concerned at all about any such 'laws' (assuming they exist--and I'm not sure that they do)? Isn't that just more conceptual theorization?
Why is it not enough to realize our true nature, rest in that incredible peace and appreciate whatever arises in the present moment? I mean really appreciate it rather than trying to understand it or figure it out.
If we think we've figured anything out then its just more mental stuff. In the end, you don't really know anything at all. ET says something like the limited human mind can never comprehend existence (or something like that). I do worry that LoA and such other 'laws' might be (somewhat dangerous) egoic? distractions that one can get caught up in. (As a disclaimer, let me just say, I don't know anything about LoA--just what I've read on this forum )

So, I think my counter question is: Can one not know anything, be comfortable with that and simply be life? Can one appreciate the mystery, really appreciate it, without trying to solve it?

[karmarider]

rt, I agree that the tendency towards conceptual theorization is an obstacle. In that tendency, it's hard not to borrow other people's beliefs and ideas and see them truth. The tendency is to use external "laws" to improve life situations in my experience just energizes delusions. There is nothing wrong with that, but it's not truth.

Why is it not enough to realize our true nature, rest in that incredible peace and appreciate whatever arises in the present moment?

Well, this may be it, but if we're honest, we'll be alert that this too may just be another mental state. After reading PON, or a period of meditating, or resting in awareness, it seems it's pretty common to come to state which is calm, peace, open, listening. It's certainly very enjoyable, and life flows along very nicely. I'm in it right now. Nothing is lacking at all, and it seems everything is coming along in just the way I want it to.

This is the second time this happened (interspersed with periods of confusion and low-energy).

Is this really the realization of truth?

Honesty tells me it isn't.

A fair question would be so what? It's an easy, calm place to operate from. What's wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with it.

But it isn't freedom.

And so observance and honesty continues.

[hanss]

So how aware are you of natural laws in constant motion?

None. Cause I'm not familiar with the laws. This Millman dude, is he easy to read? I can't find a swedish version of it (only peaceful warrior) and I don't want a headache Any other books that are describing this "dance" in a good way? Not too newagey or with spiritual guides and stuff, I mean energy and awareness combined with practical life sort of.

[runstrails]

I apologize for any hijacking of the thread.

Karmarider wrote:
Well, this may be it, but if we're honest, we'll be alert that this too may just be another mental state. After reading PON, or a period of meditating, or resting in awareness, it seems it's pretty common to come to state which is calm, peace, open, listening. It's certainly very enjoyable, and life flows along very nicely. I'm in it right now. Nothing is lacking at all, and it seems everything is coming along in just the way I want it to.

Hi Kr,
I like your emphasis on honesty. So I will try to be as rigorously honest as I can.
It is not a state that I am referring to. Simply because it is always present. Always. For me, there is a real certainty of (non-mental) knowing that it is my true nature. Oh, attention wanders constantly into this life situation or that. My life remains as tumultuous as ever. In fact, I am just in the midst of a work-related crisis. However, that awareness (or a free-floating amness--as someone put it) is ever present. Never goes away.
Also, the peace I was referring to is not really something that is enjoyable, but more like a deep rooted sense of wellbeing and joy (bliss, dare I say ). Things are as they are. Life is happening and its amazing (not always the way you want it, though). However, this background sense of well being is often temporarily, covered by the foreground chaos of my life. I have to remind myself constantly to turn attention towards it. I wonder if that will ever change.

Now for some brutal honesty: I think I hardly ever operate from clarity in the real world. I try to, but my conditioned patterns of egoic behavior are very deep rooted. If you were to ask my husband--he would say I'm as crazy as ever. My work colleagues likely find me just as cut-throat. In fact, I just created this work crisis that would not have happened had any kind of clarity been observed. And now I'll have to deal with its fall out. I remain a hypochondriac for the most part. But deep underneath all this, there it is--that sense of well-being, that recognition that I am my life and also beyond it. And this recognition is non-mental. Its like a sixth sense in a way.

So, if this is not freedom--then I'm not sure what is! The ability to participate in samsara (Lila/Maya/illusion) with it all its foibles, emotions, thoughts, fears, and majesty but yet to know (and experience) at the same time that you are also beyond it. What you are, of course, remains the most glorious mystery of all. I have no interest in trying to solve it, just to plunge deeper into it.

Thank you for letting me articulate this. I think I have been as honest as possible. It's probably the only thing I have done from clarity all day

[the key master]

kr said,
The tendency is to use external "laws" to improve life situations in my experience just energizes delusions.

Right. Now if you found some laws which are "anti delusion", you might wanna take a gander. Consciousness becoming lucid has nothing to do with a person getting what it wants, but a person understanding that not wanting it's own interpretation of perception is a phenomena driven by unconscious forces.

Im not a big fan of laws myself, but I have no problem sharing my own understanding for nobody in particular.

[the key master]

Almost paradoxically, when consciousness becomes lucid, the person ends up getting just what it wants. Just thought id mention that not for the sake of a certain anybody.

[snowheight]

Can one not know anything, be comfortable with that and simply be life? Can one appreciate the mystery, really appreciate it, without trying to solve it?

We can't solve it as there is nothing to solve, no solution, and no calculus that doesn't depend on a zero and an infinity, no arithmetic which doesn't involve enumeration, while the mystery is innumerable as it is unbreakable.

Whether or not we are comfortable with it we are life, whether we are in touch with that cool deep place within or not.

Answers, even the profound ones from the likes of Einstein and Bohr (... well actually ... especially those!) just give us more questions. Isn't it beautiful 'trails?

Thanks for share up there also btw. I'm sure that 'Jen don't mind us threadjackers as she has an uncanny ability to connect almost any two lines of discussion ... but I will keep this brief -- I echo much of your experience from the work world but will add that these worldly collisions of halloween-masks take much less of an internal toll these days.

[karmarider]

I apologize for any hijacking of the thread.

Me too.

I like your emphasis on honesty. So I will try to be as rigorously honest as I can.
It is not a state that I am referring to. Simply because it is always present. Always. For me, there is a real certainty of (non-mental) knowing that it is my true nature. Oh, attention wanders constantly into this life situation or that. My life remains as tumultuous as ever. In fact, I am just in the midst of a work-related crisis. However, that awareness (or a free-floating amness--as someone put it) is ever present. Never goes away.
Also, the peace I was referring to is not really something that is enjoyable, but more like a deep rooted sense of wellbeing and joy (bliss, dare I say ). Things are as they are. Life is happening and its amazing (not always the way you want it, though). However, this background sense of well being is often temporarily, covered by the foreground chaos of my life. I have to remind myself constantly to turn attention towards it. I wonder if that will ever change.

That's cool.

I've felt this too.

It's an inexplicable. It's an awaring presence. And life just flows.

Here's the thing. These things are said all the time. The awakening say it; a little less the awakened. I mean we hear it all the time.

I'm not doubting that this isn't actual experience because it is mine too.

But it's not realized truth. It's not freedom yet.

Now for some brutal honesty: I think I hardly ever operate from clarity in the real world.

Well, maybe not complete clarity, more and more there is a rightness to actions and decisions. But the thing that keeps coming up is the fear (?) that other people think me weird. Thanks for deciding to be honest, btw. I'm making an unconventional decision right now which has intuitive rightness written all over it for me, but by conventional standards it might be seen as crazy.

I try to, but my conditioned patterns of egoic behavior are very deep rooted. If you were to ask my husband--he would say I'm as crazy as ever. My work colleagues likely find me just as cut-throat. In fact, I just created this work crisis that would not have happened had any kind of clarity been observed. And now I'll have to deal with its fall out. I remain a hypochondriac for the most part. But deep underneath all this, there it is--that sense of well-being, that recognition that I am my life and also beyond it. And this recognition is non-mental. Its like a sixth sense in a way.

I know what you mean. It feels like a game, underneath a constant being. Something like that. Inexplicable. Yet real.

And still, I think there is further to go.

So, if this is not freedom--then I'm not sure what is!

Yeah.

See if I was playing the awakening game, I would say the mind cannot know.

But honesty is the thing. We hear the word honesty, and we have ideas about what it is. But it's a really good exercise to decide on internal honesty and keep the thing running. It actually develops. And that is it, I think internal honesty is it--honesty is the final surrender.

Thank you for letting me articulate this. I think I have been as honest as possible. It's probably the only thing I have done from clarity all day

Ditto.

[karmarider]

kr said,
The tendency is to use external "laws" to improve life situations in my experience just energizes delusions.

Right. Now if you found some laws which are "anti delusion", you might wanna take a gander. Consciousness becoming lucid has nothing to do with a person getting what it wants, but a person understanding that not wanting it's own interpretation of perception is a phenomena driven by unconscious forces.

Ok, you're going to have to break this down. I don't quite get what you're saying.

[smiileyjen101]

Already I am laughing and smiling and yum..ing... it's impossible to hijack a thread it's going wherever it will by whichever stream it bumps into, and maybe a wild ride for some, a ho-hum for others, a 'but I already knew all this' for others, followed by a little twist in river and some bumpy rapids having them shriek a little then quickly looking behind to see if anyone 'witnessed' it, before flowing out into the perfect sunrise on the ocean.

hanss wrote: None. Cause I'm not familiar with the laws. This Millman dude, is he easy to read? I can't find a swedish version of it (only peaceful warrior) and I don't want a headache Any other books that are describing this "dance" in a good way? Not too newagey or with spiritual guides and stuff, I mean energy and awareness combined with practical life sort of.

god i love you man!! Just because you found peace and laughter in an icecream shop with an attractive lady sorely misinfluenced by a motor vehicle of 'repute' and could enjoy fun at your ego's expense...

It actually is fairly practical and even though it primarily looks at using the laws within the context of what is basically numerology.. (new agey or just ancient wisdom updated?)

I 'believe in you' so much... lol... that I spent almost all of today going through 77 pages of the stuff quoting and summarising etc till my arms are sore from typing - so ppfffftt to your headache notions

RT - no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.
I just didn't think it was 'fair' to isolate LOA without an understanding of the other energies at work, whether we are conscious of them or not, whether we want to be conscious of them or not.

But, playing knowing about these forces at work can make life a whole heap of fun - think HH Dalai Lama and how he 'balances' or more rides the crest of the waves of these energies - I don't think that's an accident, I do think it's awareness.

I think you will have a whole heap of fun with the law of honesty - bring it on hunny!!!

Karmarider you're 'intuition' is at work about the 'law of cycles' rising and falling of everything in it's own time, with ease on the upswing - going against the trend of a cycle doesn't make things impossible, but it's far easier in harmony with the energy flow. The law of higher will also makes short work of the 'importance' of others' opinions as against using the energies of the law of intuition and the law of higher will.

I think we do have enough interest to explore these, But, having done that reviewing and now come in here I've run out of time lol.... to upload them AND get to the store to get something for dinner, so please keep chatting among yourselves and I'll upload them when I get a spare moment.

OOh there's also mentions of paradox just for snowy and I'm loving the energy in here already

kr said,
The tendency is to use external "laws" to improve life situations in my experience just energizes delusions.
Keymaster said:
Right. Now if you found some laws which are "anti delusion", you might wanna take a gander.

oooh.. and if anyone can find out for us when ET had his 'realization' on the park bench that might be really, really interesting... teaser...

[smiileyjen101]

Not sure how far I'll get with all this before I have to fly - but here goes. Please don't feel overwhelmed by the amount of info here, and as you'll see, take what resonates, leave what doesn't. There will be twists and turns all over the place as we all interact. En-JOY!!

Laws of spirit - within Dan Millman The life you were born to live

Quote: Dan Millman: the life you were born to live
P320
“Human laws form a basis of social agreement and social order, but human laws are only pale reflections of a higher order of laws sewn into the fabric of existence. These laws govern the movement of the earth, the cycle of seasons, the forces of nature and the structure of the atom itself. Nature didn’t make these laws; nature only reveals and demonstrates them. The great laws existed before humanity, before nature.”

…
“To their music, even the galaxies dance”

YUM!!!!

Paraphrasing – by watching a tree bend in the wind, we notice the power of the Law of flexibility, only the rigid branches break. “the secret of yielding or non-resistance”.

Secret is his word, I wouldn’t use it as the knowledge is there in the open for all to see it in action. For me there’s a difference in whether something is hidden or merely unseen.

“P321: Ultimately all spiritual laws reveal themselves as needed – not necessarily in words, but rather through our deepest feelings, through the intuitive wisdom of our hearts. Our bodies, when free of external programming and interference, abide naturally within these laws, which are communicated through our instincts and subtle intuitive feelings. All we have to do is pay attention to and trust our inner knower. The mind or ego, our isolated sense of separate self, resists the flow of the current of life”

Yum “current of life” – for me this both speaks to the ‘flow’ and the ‘resonance/frequency’ in energy terms.

[smiileyjen101]

Law of Flexibility – p324:

“requires an alert and expansive state of awareness, not just going with the flow, but embracing and making constructive use of it. Mastering this law we turn stumbling blocks into stepping-stones and problems into opportunities; when high winds blow we don’t just ‘accept’ or tolerate these winds, we put up windmills.”

This is one of the laws at work in martial arts, using the available energy in the direction that it’s already flowing, rather than going against it. Being able to recognise the ‘flow’ in both direction and intensity takes present-ness. It’s this that is under discussion in the ‘non-violence absolute’ thread, coupled I would mention with the law of responsibility. In the ‘practice’ of it, we can change on a dime, in thought, feeling or action, merely by also abiding by the law of the present moment – that no thing is as it was a moment ago. It makes short work of ‘what you resist, persists’ and the notion that acceptance is a passive state.

He mentions it’s the Serenity Prayer in application. He suggests looking at a situation or thing that you resist, notice how you tense, freeze up and become reactive. Then to ask yourself: “What if I actively went with the force and made it mine?”

[smiileyjen101]

The Law of Choices has to a degree been discussed here in the free will topics.

It accepts the circumstances as they are and promotes the conscious application of our power and responsibility to choose how we respond to our circumstances – to expand or contract. Going against this natural law provides ‘external locus of control’ issues, blaming others, ‘powerlessness’ combined with ignoring the law of honesty and/or responsibility it allows for the ‘victim’ or passive aggressive experiences.

He discusses expressive choice – energy demands release, if we block our emotions and thoughts we create blockages in the flow of life.

Recognising that we can express ‘positive’ or ‘negative’ energies in constructive rather than destructive ways is part of the practising of this law. He suggests noticing criticising is not expressing our core feelings honestly, but turning what we feel into judgements.

By also following the law of honesty and of responsibility, we might rephrase it into a positive sharing of the core feeling, thereby employing the choice in our situation of how to respond.

He suggests thinking of a time you expressed something in a negative or outside of you way and looking for the core feeling – rather than judging ‘he/she makes me angry’ reframing “I feel angry when…” It might also be wise to ‘notice’ when you blocked expression of your core feelings – they will manifest somewhere/time.

[smiileyjen101]

The law of responsibility p 336

“For peace of mind, we need to resign as general manager of the universe.” Larry Eisenberg.

In this he discusses the intermingling of many to achieve a purpose, and the cooperation required, but the varying degrees of responsibility and where that begins and ends. Being imbalanced in this arena gives weight to swinging over or under cooperation, controlling behaviours, resentment etc If not employed with the other laws, such as honesty, present moment, flexibility etc all ‘h*&*’ can let loose and no thing will be resolved or achieved. Ego gets in the way of this one big time.

Personal responsibility has boundaries, as does cultural responsibility, global responsibility. In a sense practice of this law ‘finds the line’ and avoids martyr, doormat or dictator controller narcissist experiences. Naturally it requires choices (law), and expression (of energy). It also requires Balance – another law.