Contradictions

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Contradictions

Postby tenderboy » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:22 pm

I love Eckhart Tolle, but everyone of us should be mature enough to see, that Eckharts Teachings are not free from Contradictions. That may be caused by nature of language, which makes it impossible to really speak out the truth. Its just like Tolle says, that Concepts can't contain the truth, just as words never can. However, the reason why I am opening this thread is, because no one should abondon one self to Tolle. "A wise men follows only himself"(Euripides)

Here are some examples, which show that there are seemingly contradictions in his teachings:

1) He says that death is an illusion and at least only a transformation, so at least not really a death. What we really are is immortal. But on the other hand, he says, that he believes in rebirth and reincarnation. He says, it would be possible to choose, if we want to get reborn or not. But who choses? If the self is an illusion, and everyone is actually the same, it also means, that there is no one, who would be able to chose. If no one died, no one can be reborn. And anyway, if we are all the same, rebirth would become absurd, right?

2) He claims that it is more important to know who you are, instead of having much things or much money. But he doesn't use the possibility to offer his teachings free, though he earned alreaydy millions of money. How shall we know, if he's not one of these frauds the world had for thousands of years? We can't know if there were 200 years ago maybe at least the same things going on as now and everyone believed it to be the truth, instead of following themselves!

3) He claims that we need to look at the Now. But on the other hand, thats impossible, if you are not looking at the Now at the moment. Because if you try to focus your attention on the now, than you are already not any more looking at that, what is exactly Now. You are ever in the Now. And if that is, what we need, it is impossible to change anything. Every suffering would remain, if the now is, what we need. A "part" of the Now must change, that there is later no more suffering. That's why it doesn't make sense to believe, that nothing needs to be changed. It's maybe just not me, who changes it.

4) He claims, that it is actually very easy to "get" into the Now. But on the other hand he says, that if you are in the Now, you would make it easier for others, to get in the Now also. And also, on some of his books it is written, that the journey we will go with this book is challenging, and not very easy! A contradiction as the journey is mostly or completely only a journey into the Now.

I will go on with reading of Eckhart Tolles works, because it makes fun to me. But I wouldn't give him the power to decide about my own life. No one knows a better answer than me, what is the right answer. And it would also better for you, to don't believe that this man knows things better than you. He does not, because he is only a concept in your head. What he really is may speak to you, or it may not. It may not be his fault, but yours or maybe the other way around. No one can understand the absolute truth with his head. Who knows, maybe there is something in your life, that is really much more important to find yourself, than Eckhart Tolles words. He may even say that himself. However, I don't want to finish this post without saying, that this was not a try to hurt anybody and not an attack, and I'm not sure if those things come from me, as I would really love it much more to just have some perfect guys out there I can hang on so that I am more secure and can define myself with.
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Re: Contradictions

Postby 18andlife » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:51 am

"Contradictions are not a sign of falsehood, nor are the lack of contradictions a sign of truth."

Blaise Pascal.
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Re: Contradictions

Postby ashley72 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:17 am

Tenderboy,

...because no one should abondon one self to Tolle.

I've read a fair bit of Tolle's works, and i can't recall any time he asks people to follow him or abandon themselves for his message.

These are more likely your own creative thoughts you've pasted on to the situation. Most peoples thoughts are like a mirror... Reflect on your own post, it contains alot of your own fears and worries... I don't share any of your concerns and to be honest my conditioned response was one of amusement. You've got more to gain from examining your own advice and why you actually have these fears and concerns in the first place.

A little clue might be the desire you wrote at the end...

....as I would really love it much more to just have some perfect guys out there I can hang on so that I am more secure and can define myself with.

Your actually the one searching for someone to follow, and thoughts arise telling you that's a bad idea. If the desire to follow someone wasn't there this other thought wouldn't arise. So your post is really a reflection of you own story but you can't see it... You express it as a warning to others.
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Re: Contradictions

Postby snowheight » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:06 pm

On 1) you've made a few interesting observations on the mystery of life. death, existence and true nature, at the root of which the mind will find a paradox.

On 2) ... the Christians have a saying, by their fruits ye shall know them. So while it might seem circular and self-justifying, any or no explanation as to ET's financial choices will suffice. In that vein, have you ever heard of Ramana Maharishi? I hadn't until I started reading this forum. The question is, how many people in the modern world will listen to a man in rags with no microphone? Consider that question in the context of who it is that Tolle's written work is directed toward.

3) is very clever! ... conceive of the Now, if you will, as the limit as delta-t goes to zero. Physicists theorize (and have been validated) about a shortest possible interval of time, called the Planck time, and psychologists have tried to measure the shortest interval of which we can be aware. Einstein showed us that time is essentially the same as space ... but if we follow his reasoning, the dimension of time is a specialized dimension of space, in that our day-to-day extent within it is very limited. We live in that limit as delta-t goes to zero. We don't live 1 second ago, we don't live 1 second from now ... for all intents and purposes, these are just abstractions. This is a literal interpretation of Tolle's writing "it is never not Now", and "we live in the Now", and one that is perhaps helpful, but he does point to something else. Something much grander and yet so fragile. Something beyond the mind.

4) ... yes you caught him! :lol: ... and all the rest of us for that matter! :lol:

Your admonition to not believe Tolle is one that that you will not find much disagreement with here ... but are you sure that it is necessary? I'm reminded of something specific he writes near the start of his first book, but won't bother beating you over the head with it for now unless you have interest.

18andlife wrote:"Contradictions are not a sign of falsehood, nor are the lack of contradictions a sign of truth."

Blaise Pascal.


Good one, hadn't read that before, thank you.

I've posted this before but it fits ... it sort of what Pascal said, but through the other side of the looking glass so to speak:

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth."

Neils Bohr (the guy largely responsible for the invention of Quantum Mechanics)
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: Contradictions

Postby tenderboy » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:01 pm

snowheight wrote:
On 2) ... the Christians have a saying, by their fruits ye shall know them. So while it might seem circular and self-justifying, any or no explanation as to ET's financial choices will suffice. In that vein, have you ever heard of Ramana Maharishi? I hadn't until I started reading this forum. The question is, how many people in the modern world will listen to a man in rags with no microphone? Consider that question in the context of who it is that Tolle's written work is directed toward.


However, it would be possible for him and for all of his "crew", to offer more content for free on Tolles website.

snowheight wrote:
Your admonition to not believe Tolle is one that that you will not find much disagreement with here ... but are you sure that it is necessary? I'm reminded of something specific he writes near the start of his first book, but won't bother beating you over the head with it for now unless you have interest.



What really feels to be very necessary is to feel myself more, instead of having this unfulfilled state of emptiness I can't accept. I am not understanding who created my ego, if it was not the ego. What is actually the source of suffering? I opened this thread because my relationship to Eckhart Teachings doesn't seem to help me anymore. I didn't know how to talk about that otherwise.
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Re: Contradictions

Postby anewmirth » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:05 pm

Nicely said snowheight & ashley72, thanks for those.

On 1) you've made a few interesting observations on the mystery of life. death, existence and true nature, at the root of which the mind will find a paradox.


I have always had a fascination for paradoxes. It makes me think that for something to come out of the Oneness (or void), it takes a "form" (in form ation) within duality but the very nature of duality is that there are two opposing sides to it and so these mysteries of life seem to be able to cancel each other out and go back into the void as an intrinsic part of duality. Do you think that paradoxes have the ability to lead an observer beyond the mind (back into "the void") when the mind is unable to comprehend how both ideas can be true and so, with surrender, becomes quiet when the paradox is entered into deeply?

During the big bang, where matter first came out of the void, there was both matter and anti-matter and much of the original matter and anti-matter became nullified when they met. There is still anti-matter out there and there is certainly still matter!

Is there a good thread on the forum about this? Can you (or anyone) recommend a good book about this? I'd like to read more.

Apologies tenderboy, I don't wish to derail your earnest enquiry, I posted this a few minutes after yours without realising that you'd made another post. For me, the funny thing about ET is that I don't think many people slavishly look up him like a Jesus figure. For me, ET has reached the state of normal (at Oneness). I don't fantasize about being "touched on the forehead by ET" or anything. It's just oh yeah, that's ET, he made it. Many people on this forum have had flashes or more constant states of real "normal" and it's a Self-authenticating experience. There are no thoughts of ET while it's going on :) . It's a state where the mind is no longer asking questions because everything is just perfectly apparent. The ego will try and keep you away from this experience though and bring up a lot of arguments to keep you from it. Some of us have required quite a bit of suffering in order to crack our ego shells to let a bit of light in. I honour your journey and hope that you can work on your shell gently bit by bit.
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Re: Contradictions

Postby ashley72 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:25 am

Anewmirth,

Where do I start, so many theories......

Here is something you might find of interesting.

During the big bang, where matter first came out of the void, there was both matter and anti-matter and much of the original matter and anti-matter became nullified when they met. There is still anti-matter out there and there is certainly still matter!

Is there a good thread on the forum about this? Can you (or anyone) recommend a good book about this? I'd like to read more.


A new theory of Cosmogony

The Cosmic Commode theory is an alternative cosmogony. Primarily, it rejects two false premises of the Big Bang model: (1) The cosmological red-shift of the light from all distant objects in space is due to an expansion of the universe, and (2) Gravity is a “force”, one of the Four Forces of Nature, thought by some to be propagated quantum-fashion by a particle, a proposed “graviton”, or a “superstring”.

Some of the more interesting parts of the model is....

We are offering a cosmology which postulates that space, time and gravity form an interdimensional matrix that is best metaphored by the mobius strip, a universe that physically and temporally involutes on itself to form a never-ending, spiral cycle. In this view of the cosmos, there is no Big Bang, no End and no Beginning.... only an eternal, double-cycled evolution.

Bit by bit, as all galactic matter-energy spirals down the central-galactic black-hole-singularity “toilet bowl”, it effectively reaches infinite density, infinite mass, infinite gravitational curvature (or involuted direction) and therefore infinite time-passage as well.... in this universe. Relativity stops here.

End of Time.

As the matter-energy is crushed to impossible density in the black hole, it emerges on the other side of the “universal coin” at the beginning of time.... and the beginning of the second half of our mobius-strip circuit, around the “other side”, the ultimate destination of the “direction” of gravity.

In a central-galactic, black hole-singularity, space-time itself turns “inside-out”, causing all accompanying matter-energy to follow suit by ultimately becoming its own antimatter, following the total conversion of the galactic mass into gamma-photons as the mirror-reversal process takes place: An exploding quasar of pure electromagnetic energy once again.... From the End of Time to a new Beginning, and representing the only form of gateway between them.... A dark “tunnel” with a strange, illogical “twist” on the inside. Light is its own anti-particle, and can exist on either side of the mobius-strip, in both the matter and antimatter halves of the cosmos.

Image

Here's another theory which might interest you as well. A Fractal Theory of the Origin and Meaning of the Universe

If you are like me... you will most likely forget all these theories in a few months.... which is a sign in itself!
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Re: Contradictions

Postby snowheight » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:48 am

anewmirth wrote: Is there a good thread on the forum about this? Can you (or anyone) recommend a good book about this? I'd like to read more.


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

(look for a response thread to this soon 'mirth! ... I'll put together an anthology of sorts ... least I can do in return for your great work on the joke and inspiration posts!)
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Re: Contradictions

Postby snowheight » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:05 am

tenderboy wrote:
snowheight wrote:
On 2) ... the Christians have a saying, by their fruits ye shall know them. So while it might seem circular and self-justifying, any or no explanation as to ET's financial choices will suffice. In that vein, have you ever heard of Ramana Maharishi? I hadn't until I started reading this forum. The question is, how many people in the modern world will listen to a man in rags with no microphone? Consider that question in the context of who it is that Tolle's written work is directed toward.


However, it would be possible for him and for all of his "crew", to offer more content for free on Tolles website.


Yes it would. You make a true statement. Now, on the other hand, there is quite a bit for free lying around on the web, and he doesn't do anything to squelch it, including this forum, which uses his smiling face right up in the upper-left corner.

And what does Tolle tell us about "more"?

tenderboy wrote:
What really feels to be very necessary is to feel myself more, instead of having this unfulfilled state of emptiness I can't accept. I am not understanding who created my ego, if it was not the ego. What is actually the source of suffering? I opened this thread because my relationship to Eckhart Teachings doesn't seem to help me anymore. I didn't know how to talk about that otherwise.


You have my sympathy on this, and empathy as well -- if you read around here, you'll find a common theme in a perceived "lapse" in the "benefit" of Tolle's work.

Is that your experience?

I welcome your thread -- at first glance it seemed just like an average, run-of-the-mill guerrilla-style ET bash from folks who pop in and out of existence like fireflies, but when read through you obviously have thought this out with care, and you truly have pointed up a contradiction or two.

If you feel that writing and discussing this stuff will help, myself and several others here are always game ... but, and this is not to discourage you or chase you away, or to tell you how wrong you are ... but these questions about Tolle or the ego or death or what is "meant" by "Now" ... in the end, none of that matters.

What does matter is the answer to the question of who you think it is that does think it matters.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: Contradictions

Postby Blenderhead » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:02 am

Sounds like you have a healthy attitude towards books, most people are not able to learn from others whom they disagree with.
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Re: Contradictions

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:26 am

...most people are not able to learn from others whom they disagree with

They are the ones we can learn most from, stretch, grow, stand-under, see what it throws up.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: Contradictions

Postby anewmirth » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:40 pm

ashley72, that was impressive. My simple mind is reeling. Thanks for that :D I will re-read that again to try and fit more of it in my brain. :shock:
(look for a response thread to this soon 'mirth! ... I'll put together an anthology of sorts

Looking forward to it snowheight!
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Re: Contradictions

Postby tenderboy » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:36 am

Blenderhead wrote:Sounds like you have a healthy attitude towards books, most people are not able to learn from others whom they disagree with.


I don't disagree to what Eckhart says. That would be only an egoic behaviour, trying to define myself better. However, I don't understand mostly of what he says and I don't know if it's true or if its wrong. It may be nothing of both. Recognizing contradictions doesn't mean to disagree with. Indeed, people who try to defend the perfectness of concepts just because someone is talking about contradictions in it are stucked in defending their ego.

@others: nothing I could answer now would make my ego bigger so I won't say anything :D
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Re: Contradictions

Postby ashley72 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:21 am

tenderboy wrote:
Blenderhead wrote: However, I don't understand mostly of what he says and I don't know if it's true or if its wrong.


This analogy might help.

The Ocean

An extremely useful metaphor to help us picture the relationship between phenomena (arisings in Awareness) and Noumenon (Awareness) is that of the waves on the surface of the ocean. Waves (phenomena) cannot exist without the ocean (Noumenon). The ocean in its depth is quiet, peaceful and undisturbed. Waves, storms, and foaming surf arise on the surface without disturbing the depths. Likewise, Noumenon is totally undisturbed by the frenzied and meaningless activity of phenomena. Each wave consists of a crest and a trough. One cannot appear without the other, just as all of the inseparable opposites of phenomena must appear together. When the ocean (Noumenon) identifies with a wave and the wave thinks of itself as being separate from the other waves and from the ocean itself, the illusory individual appears. This is spiritual ignorance. When Identification ends and awakening occurs, it is clear that there is only the ocean (Noumenon), there has always been only the ocean, and we are the ocean. Source - Course In Consciousness - Stanley Sobottka - Emeritus Professor of Physics University of Virginia.
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Re: Contradictions

Postby EternalPrize » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:03 pm

Ashley, in this instance is the "nounema" the underlying "objective reality" or whatever we call it? i.e. the heart, the lungs, etc doing their thing beneath the conscious levels of which we think of them existing?
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