Presence

[Kutso]

Mind is never absent.

I think you need to clarify your definition of "mind".

Even when thinking stops, knowledge of something always goes on

Yes, something is known. But that is not a function of the mind, since the mind, when present, itself is known.

even in deep presence, to know it, there is mind that records the knowledge of aware space being present as the forefront of experience.

Again, the mind is not the knower. There is experience of some sort that is known. Then there may come thoughts in form of memories about that experience later, which also are known. Also, I would like to know what you mean be "deep presence". It there different levels of presence?

Please tell me when mind is absent.

Again, it depends on you definition of "mind". I would say absence of mind is the absence of thoughts.

It's with mind I can say that yes, there is always awareness, in the background of every experience, and non-experience as well (sleep), but I can only say this using mind or in retrospect, reflecting on my experience right now.

Correct, it is with mind that you can SAY this. However, it is not with mind that you know this. There's a BIG difference.

We are not using word Presence in the same way. I guess it is more accurate to use it as Presence of self-awareness. Is that always present?

Okay, so you say "presence" is the same as "Self-awareness", which is what exactly? How do you define "Self-awareness"?

How about if I rephrase it "I'm not always self-aware, phenomenon of presence happens in myself, where I become aware of myself, as this now moment that is always, in every experience, and is self evident in this self aware presence" some nonsense like that

So, are you saying that you don't always know that you are?

Ashley wrote:
To inhere in the Self is the thing. That is all you need to do. Just rest while sensing your Self. Just hold on to the sense ‘I am’ tenaciously

Just a side note to this. The sense of 'I am' is also known.

[autumnsphere]

I would say absence of mind is the absence of thoughts.

Oh I disagree! I could stop my thoughts any minute, I could just be there looking at things, experiencing hot, cold, whatever, and my mind would still be there, noticing. Absence of mind is total oblivion, total blackout, death.

Correct, it is with mind that you can SAY this. However, it is not with mind that you know this. There's a BIG difference.

Here we have this difference again - between awareness and mind. Please, please guys, define them.

[SandyJoy]

It might be so, Sandy. It might also be that communicating has been getting a lot easier these days. It is easier to reach the masses, so to speak.

Yes, and that 'easy communication" via new technologies is a confirmation of our 'growing recognition' of our Self. Our Self-Awareness is manifest as a speeding up of connections. Now it takes no time to 'see' and speak with someone from the coast of California while in India; a living expression of the timeless-here-and-now-ness of our Selfhood. Soon we will see time-travel to and from the past and future, and we will also very soon see a new dimension added!

All that we see is "out there" is a 'result" of our expanding Self Knowing. The world we see is like the wake behind the "unseen" ship passing by. We are the cause of the computer age; Steve Jobs Is You and so "Steve" lives!

Jesus said something like "As I be lifted up to the Light, the world is lifted" (and Jesus words always spoken from the subjective view from the perspective of "I" means "you too", as in there is only one Identity here. There is only one Awareness, only One "I" and I Am That. Self-Aware Universe, God is All, et al. We are the world we walk through. World is reflection of "what we believe and live" about our self.

Much Love, SandyjOY

[SandyJoy]

I would say absence of mind is the absence of thoughts.

Oh I disagree! I could stop my thoughts any minute, I could just be there looking at things, experiencing hot, cold, whatever, and my mind would still be there, noticing. Absence of mind is total oblivion, total blackout, death.

Correct, it is with mind that you can SAY this. However, it is not with mind that you know this. There's a BIG difference.

Here we have this difference again - between awareness and mind. Please, please guys, define them.

Yes, this whole idea of thinking or not thinking is rather mis-leading anyway. Thinking does nothing to mind. You do not stop your mind from thinking. Mind and mind are all the same one, mind and awareness are the same thing; you can be perfectly at peace and be thinking at the same time. I think we all do it all the time. It does not matter if you capitalize them or not, awareness and mind are the same one. Identity, Self and Mind and Awareness are the same Presence.

Autum is correct, there is never ever a moment when there is no mind. Mind is God, we are the action of the Living Mind. This Mind is Divine and It is All That Is. It is without beginning or end, so It has no where to go and it cannot be absent; absent from what? When It is All That I Am and All That Is. Life, Mind, Awareness, Being, Here and Now, Isness, Intelligence, all the same One; You cannot ever be absent from This Living Presence, Life Itself. This is why it is a joy and delight to "think" , thinking is aspect of Life in total. We can think, we can write, we can speak, or not---but, it is good to know that we are the very action of God and part of that action is 'thinking" --- thinking is part of our Completeness as the Wholeness and Holiness of the Ineffable Mind of Godhead--- and It is a Joy to express with our thoughts and mind.

Peace is not affected by our thinking when we actually Live It. Peace, Tranquillity, Love, Stillness, Joy, Beauty, Light, Awareness, Mind, Is our Identity and cannot be changed or disturbed or touched by the passing thoughts that come and go. but we can enjoy all the attributes and qualities of our Self-Knowing. The Living Joy begins when you realize you know and know you know and you have nothing to live up to but the simple, innocent joy of being your self; a return to childlikeness.

Much Love, Sandy

[hanss]

I would say absence of mind is the absence of thoughts.

Oh I disagree! I could stop my thoughts any minute, I could just be there looking at things, experiencing hot, cold, whatever, and my mind would still be there, noticing. Absence of mind is total oblivion, total blackout, death.

Correct, it is with mind that you can SAY this. However, it is not with mind that you know this. There's a BIG difference.

Here we have this difference again - between awareness and mind. Please, please guys, define them.

Mooji says that the mind is not something with thoughts in it, mind is thought. But as this is a Tolle forum here below are some words from him. Why confuse people that come to this forum with the definition that mind is everything? Maybe another kind of self-enquiry is needed than "who am I" and "find out who is...bla bla", something like "who or what is it that wants to complicate things all the time?" In my case it is the mind, with Kutsos definition.

"Being is not only beyond but also deep within every form as its innermost invisible and indestructible essence. This means that it is accessible to you now as your own deepest self, your true nature. But don't seek to grasp it with your mind. Don't try to understand it. You can know it only when the mind is still. When you are present, when your attention is fully and intensely in the Now, Being can be felt, but it can never be understood mentally." (E.T.)

[autumnsphere]

It's so nice to read words of teachers that are clear. That's the difference between awakened teachers and awakened folks - teachers can express it clearly.

[SandyJoy]

It's so nice to read words of teachers that are clear. That's the difference between awakened teachers and awakened folks - teachers can express it clearly.

Yes, it always reminds of the feeling when we were little kids in school and we were trying to understand our multiplication tables, and everyone tries to get us to learn them, and we study and try, and ponder and worry, and fret, and get upset, and mom tries to help and dad tries his way and we practice, and struggle and read some more and then one day "Wow!" we just get it! It happens deep within, somehow we know and know we know! Like a miracle! and the peace and relief and power and joy and the confidence all comes along with it---but, if someone asked me to 'teach it to them' it would be really quite impossible---its such an inside job, its such a personal and intimate thing when you understand, when you 'see the light' and you just get it! no need for words, and certainly no way to explain "how" you got it; the understanding of your math problem just is just simple seen and understood, there seems to be no answer to "how" or "why".

Yet, it took the study and the teacher, often the 'right' teacher for you and the books and the trying and all that, and anguish that just didn't get it, and then one day, you see it and know your multiplication tables and how it works, and how to use them and what it all means! Just a sort of Wow, I see now.

Cheers! To Life! To our Wild Adventure of Love!

[Kutso]

Oh I disagree! I could stop my thoughts any minute.

And this "I" who can stop thoughts any minute is what exactly?

I could just be there looking at things, experiencing hot, cold, whatever, and my mind would still be there, noticing.

This "I" implies a doer. An idea (thought) of a doer doing something. So, yes, the mind is still there in this instance.

What we call mind is a coherent stream of thoughts that makes up a story. You yourself have experienced when mind was not coherent, haven't you? (I'm talking about your LSD experience). And still experience was there, wasn't it?

[the key master]

autumn said,
And you thought of banning him?!

Jason could be the new Heidegger as far as I'm concerned. Jason, write the goddamn book already!

Thanks for the encouragement dora. Maybe when this thread is finished, ill start. Lots of good stuff from all you guys, even my arch nemesis arel. Im off to see Tool with a few of the homeys, will be my first show. Im pretty souped. Ill let you know how it is and be back to play with y'all sometime tomorrow...

[Midnight]

autumn said,
And you thought of banning him?!

Jason could be the new Heidegger as far as I'm concerned. Jason, write the goddamn book already!

Thanks for the encouragement dora. Maybe when this thread is finished, ill start. Lots of good stuff from all you guys, even my arch nemesis arel. Im off to see Tool with a few of the homeys, will be my first show. Im pretty souped. Ill let you know how it is and be back to play with y'all sometime tomorrow...

They still play?

[snowheight]

...

[autumnsphere]

autumn said,
And you thought of banning him?!

Jason could be the new Heidegger as far as I'm concerned. Jason, write the goddamn book already!

Thanks for the encouragement dora. Maybe when this thread is finished, ill start. Lots of good stuff from all you guys, even my arch nemesis arel. Im off to see Tool with a few of the homeys, will be my first show. Im pretty souped. Ill let you know how it is and be back to play with y'all sometime tomorrow...

OH NOW I WANNA KILL YOU!!!!

[autumnsphere]

This "I" implies a doer. An idea (thought) of a doer doing something. So, yes, the mind is still there in this instance.

What we call mind is a coherent stream of thoughts that makes up a story. You yourself have experienced when mind was not coherent, haven't you? (I'm talking about your LSD experience). And still experience was there, wasn't it?

I'm not saying that when I stop my thoughts, the mind disappears, exactly the opposite! Stopping your thoughts through the "I" is still the mind's doing. The LSD experience was pretty emotional, and it was an experience, I WAS thinking. I tried DMT though which is like LSD x 1000, haha, and this is where you fukcing disappear. Vanish into thin air to quote Maynard's alter ego A Perfect Circle. DMT is like dying - so there is a moment where your body is gone, then your mind breaks to a thousand pieces, and then... well, then there is nothing. Literally nothing. No experience, no feeling, no emotions, no thoughts, no awareness, you are fukcing gone. When you open your eyes, you're like: What the fffff? Did I just die, did I just get born? And the mind starts looking for words, looking for an experience but... all it can remember is void. You can't even remember this void. You remember falling into it, and coming out of it, that's it.

[kiki]

DMT is like dying - so there is a moment where your body is gone, then your mind breaks to a thousand pieces, and then... well, then there is nothing. Literally nothing. No experience, no feeling, no emotions, no thoughts, no awareness, you are fukcing gone. When you open your eyes, you're like: What the fffff? Did I just die, did I just get born? And the mind starts looking for words, looking for an experience but... all it can remember is void. You can't even remember this void. You remember falling into it, and coming out of it, that's it.

I've had this experience several times (though the last time was probably 12 - 15 years ago) after lying down after meditating. Everything completely disappeared and there was absolutely nothing - just nothing at all. Only after coming out of it was I aware that something unusual had happened, but the coming out of it was quite interesting because I came out a "layer" at a time.

After regaining awareness I wouldn't even know if I was a human being at first, and then it would come to me that I was, then the thought would come "who am I?" After regaining my identity as kiki the thought would come, "where am I?", and then "what time of day is it?" To my astonishment I would find that an hour to an hour and a half had passed while I was completely gone, but gone "where" is still a complete mystery. Unlike you, autumn, I never remembered falling into it, only the coming out.

I've never viewed this as a negative experience, or one that I wouldn't want to have again. It's never frightened me in the least, and I would in fact welcome it again. Why? I haven't a clue, except that I somehow feel that it was wonderful. It literally felt like being born again, but not in the Christianity sense, but an actual rebirth as a human.

I related this experience to Leonard Jacobson and he didn't know what happened, but he still called this "(non)experience" a kind of grace.

[ashley72]

Watching thoughts is not looking inward. Watching feelings is not looking inward. Watching breathing is not looking inward. Only turning the attention away from the observed and towards the observer is looking inward. Only awareness watching awareness is looking inward.

Ashley, maybe one could say that. Don't you think watching those things also gets you much closer to dropping to see what is watching?

To inhere in the Self is the thing. That is all you need to do. Just rest while sensing your Self. Just hold on to the sense ‘I am’ tenaciously

Amen.

Arel,

Watching thoughts & feelings is a good first step... certainly not the main practice. Watching thoughts & feelings helps you realise that you're not that. It doesn't awaken the individual from the dream.

Once you've realised that you're not what comes & goes (thoughts & feelings).... you need to turn the arrow of attention 180 degrees back to where the head/face resides and stay with that.... that formless spaciousness which never comes & goes. It is eternal awareness. But the eternal awareness only becomes beneficial if you stay or abide with it permanently.

The only important pointer that I have so far gained from this forum was from Ananda a couple of months ago. He posted an instruction on how-to...."Awareness watching Awareness". His very simply instruction was "to look for your face without a mirror"... like you're looking for the very first time. After following his instructions it was an immediate realisation. A few days later I came across the http://www.headless.org which added further experiments for me to experience "Awareness watching Awareness".

Once you know how to practice "Awareness watching Awareness"..... you need to abide as often as possible. If you can do it 12 hrs (awakening) a day all the better. If you only give it 30 mins a day... it won't be enough to awaken from the dream.

Everything else I've read posted on this forum is pretty much mental masturbation. All the Forum members who continually debate the validity of another forum members pointers.... are only interested in "intellectual spirituality".... certainly not awakening from the dream. Those forum members will be arguing spiritual pointers for eons or until they finally become bored and drift away from spirituality altogether.

Why Do I Use the Pointers Inward & Outward looking?

Below is a diagram showing a person on the left side looking at a mirror - Attention is focused outwardly on the surface of the mirror. On the right-hand side another person is looking at their face without a mirror. This is inwardly looking. What you perceive is not an image of your face at 1 metre away... but formless awake space at centre.





This map by Douglas Harding below... actually shows where attention needs to be directed for "Awareness watching Awareness" to be practised correctly(I AM) at the origin.