Do your thoughts create reality?

Manifesting your reality or the Law of Attraction

Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby karmarider » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:11 pm

Well, yes, many people believe it's about making our beliefs more positive. I don't see it that way at all. In fact, the compulsion to make beliefs more positive comes from the basic sense of negativity, the basic fear of life, the sense of dissatisfaction, the delusion that something is wrong.

When the delusion goes, so does the compulsion to try to be positive. Because what is left is already positive.
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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby IanB » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:48 pm

Ah, yes, I see where you're coming from now. And yes! I believe that our basic nature is that of joy, peace, unconditional love - definitely positive. The fear and negativity is all lies - the delusion, as you say, that something is wrong. When you drop all that then what's left, the clean slate as it were, is not neutral - there's no such thing as neutral - it's positive.

Where I'm at at the moment is that, until you get to the stage of dropping all that, it's better to have beliefs that serve you than ones that don't. Better (is judgemental and subjective, so I guess read "more likely to get me closer to the truth of who I am") to believe that I am a spark of Divine Consciousness/Source/etc and that we are all connected, than to believe I'm just this flesh and blood, just my thoughts, separate, alone, unworthy etc etc.

Better still to have a personal, experiential knowing of this, but sorting the beliefs out will get you closer, and make the journey to that point a lot more fun. And I'm still journeying. One day I'll realise I'm already here and stop, and just be! :lol:

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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby runstrails » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:26 pm

What a lovely, honest post. Welcome to the forum, IanB!
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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:54 pm

IanB wrote:Where I'm at at the moment is that, until you get to the stage of dropping all that, it's better to have beliefs that serve you than ones that don't. Better (is judgemental and subjective, so I guess read "more likely to get me closer to the truth of who I am") to believe that I am a spark of Divine Consciousness/Source/etc and that we are all connected, than to believe I'm just this flesh and blood, just my thoughts, separate, alone, unworthy etc etc.

My sense is that one cannot live without beliefs. Some believe they can, and often experience life as if they don't have them, but it's far more likely that their beliefs are simply pushed into an area of non-recognition where they continue to function in their perspective-creating function.

It seems better to work with our beliefs to create perspectives in life that bring us the quality of experiences we would prefer. Of course that includes matters of awakening consciousness. And I agree that it is not an issue of 'better' but one of preference. All experiences work towards the eternal evolution of consciousness.

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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby IanB » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:21 pm

Webwanderer wrote:My sense is that one cannot live without beliefs


Yeah, I can't see how that would work either

Some believe they can, and often experience life as if they don't have them, but it's far more likely that their beliefs are simply pushed into an area of non-recognition where they continue to function in their perspective-creating function.


And yes, I think it's common that many of our core beliefs are so deeply buried, or held with such conviction, that we cannot recognise them as beliefs - it's "just the way the world is" or "just the way I am". Even when we see people operating on a quite different system, it's not until we start to seriously question and change things that we realise we are working from beliefs rather than "truth" or fact. And that other people believe something else and, consequently, are creating a different experience.

I'm all for being present, allowing what is, and trying not to judge it, but I think there needs to be, or just 'is' some underlying framework from which we work - and that is our beliefs. Maybe it's just my belief that it needs to be that way that makes it true for me, and some people really don't believe anything and just 'are' - but I've yet to be convinced. Meanwhile I shall continue working with beliefs that help me create the experience I'm choosing. I don't need to be right (any more!) I'm just enjoying it. :)

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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby karmarider » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:52 pm

Beliefs happen. Beliefs, thoughts, emotions, ego are what happens in the mind. Some spiritual traditions are about getting rid of them. I'm not sure if that's necessary or even possible.

Beliefs (and thoughts, emotions, ego, mental constructs) are only troublesome when there is an underlying fear.

It's like positive thinking. Positive thinking makes us optimistic, it gives us hope, it makes us get up in the morning. People like us for it, it makes us inclusive and spiritual and well-liked, it gives us a sense of belonging, it's validating, it's congratulatory. Who wouldn't want that?

Still, the way I see it, it's more about eliminating the basic delusion of fear. In the presence of fear, it can take conscious effort and continual practice to try to adapt positive beliefs and positive thoughts. In the absence of fear, it just happens to be case. Maybe that's why de Mello said love is the absence of fear.
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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby randomguy » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:35 pm

I agree with kr here in that thoughts just happen.

Why not forget about beliefs and be open to notice that you are not bound to any phenomenon associated with an experience of thought or belief? Isn't this mystery much deeper than the experience of managing thoughts and beliefs which seems to me just another experience that comes and goes and is noticed by a non-phenomenal source, an utterly imperceivable mystery?
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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:02 pm

randomguy wrote:Why not forget about beliefs and be open to notice that you are not bound to any phenomenon associated with an experience of thought or belief? Isn't this mystery much deeper than the experience of managing thoughts and beliefs which seems to me just another experience that comes and goes and is noticed by a non-phenomenal source, an utterly imperceivable mystery?

Forget about them if you want. To me, this is just another belief. Who says it's utterly imperceivable? You can't know what another can or can't perceive. No one can, except through his or her own experience, and what is not yet experienced is not necessarily impossible. Everyone lives through beliefs, conscious or unconscious. Recognizing that reality gives a perspective on arising thought that reveals it for what it is - a manifestation of conditioning and beliefs.

Thoughts are not random. If they were I would just as likely have thoughts about your life as I do mine. Arising thoughts are the result of conditioning through repetition and emotional influence. You remember Pavlov and his dogs. The dogs couldn't care less about the ringing of a bell until they were conditioned to associate it with receiving food. Then they would salivate for the bell, food or not.

A belief is just an emotionally connected repetitive thought. Such beliefs can be restructured. The alternative is to live with/through one's current programming, borne of the unexamined happenstance of life, or one may explore for a new consciously chosen perspective based on a clearer understanding of being. Source material for consideration toward a greater understanding is abundant in today's world. We each get to choose what's meaningful and integrate it into a working life view - until some greater insight supersedes it.

There is no final choice in such conscious choice, just the best one can perceive with what one currently understands. It's an evolutionary process. But once one is clear on the malleable nature of belief perspectives, our evolutionary and consciousness expanding process can be accelerated - unless of course you believe it can't - which has its own effects.

As to the mystery, there's little concern over spoiling the fun. The greater perspectives perceived through evolving belief structures are merely temporary platforms to stand upon and rest while we enjoy a little greater view on the infinite expanse of being. There's always more to understand and experience in the infinitude of Source. My sense is that we are, in this human expression, Source's own creative movement, experimenting, exploring, experiencing.

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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby randomguy » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:40 pm

Forget about them if you want. To me, this is just another belief. Who says it's utterly imperceivable?

I do, as what perceives cannot seem to be perceived.
The last thing I am after is pedaling beliefs. They are way overrated. But please, think what you want about me.

You can't know what another can or can't perceive. No one can, except through his or her own experience, and what is not yet experienced is not necessarily impossible.

Yes, I write these things as in invitation for one to see for one's self. In fact I only asked a question or two. I don't wish to assert what is true for another. Don't get the wrong idea that I actually believe what I'm writing.

Everyone lives through beliefs, conscious or unconscious. Recognizing that reality gives a perspective on arising thought that reveals it for what it is - a manifestation of conditioning and beliefs.

...such at this assertion above. Why does this feel like you have a keen interest in my accepting these statements? I just don't. They are not true to me, just like every other thought perceived.

Thoughts are not random...

Well, I didn't say they are. I said they just happen, that is as in, this is all just here. Seems to me that "random" is just another conceptual construct that simplifies the human perception of reality, and it also seems to me that all conceptual constructs are not accurate and not valuable when interest is set on seeing what is true.

A belief is just an emotionally connected repetitive thought. Such beliefs can be restructured. The alternative is to live with/through one's current programming, borne of the unexamined happenstance of life, or one may explore for a new consciously chosen perspective based on a clearer understanding of being. Source material for consideration toward a greater understanding is abundant in today's world. We each get to choose what's meaningful and integrate it into a working life view - until some greater insight supersedes it.

I see another alternative, it is to see that one is not "their" thoughts and that conceptual understanding is just another experience.

As to the mystery, there's little concern over spoiling the fun. The greater perspectives perceived through evolving belief structures are merely temporary platforms to stand upon and rest while we enjoy a little greater view on the infinite expanse of being. There's always more to understand and experience in the infinitude of Source. My sense is that we are, in this human expression, Source's own creative movement, experimenting, exploring, experiencing.

:) Big smiley face for you, WW
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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:07 am

Seems to me that "random" is just another conceptual construct that simplifies the human perception of reality, and it also seems to me that all conceptual constructs are not accurate and not valuable when interest is set on seeing what is true.


So then would you agree that depending on your perspective of a thought - which 'side' of it you are on -

that random is also purposive
and that conceptual is also perceptual
and that to construct is also to deconstruct
and that simplifying is complicating
and that the human is spirit
and that perception is conception
and that reality is illusionary in nature
and that conceptual constructs are perceptual deconstructions
and accuracies are also inaccuracies
and not valuable is also valuable
and interest is also disinterest
and set is fluid
and seeing what is, is also being blind to what is not
and true is also false?

If so we could equally say
-Purposive (thought) is just another perceptual deconstruction that complicates the spiritual conception of illusion, and it also seems to me that all perceptual deconstructions are accuracies* and are valuable when disinterest is fluid on being blind to what is true*.

If not, you may like (or not) to rethink it.

(*I had a problem with the double negatives there - not inaccuracies = accuracies, not false = true)

:lol:
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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby IanB » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:43 am

randomguy wrote:an utterly imperceivable mystery..... what perceives cannot seem to be perceived.


(Why does this feel like you have a keen interest in my accepting these statements?)

It seems to me that you have quite a strong belief in the imperceptible mysteriousness of all this. And yet...

I write these things as in invitation for one to see for one's self


Perhaps also a desire to perceive that which is mysterious to you?

That which one perceives clearly depends on how tightly one focuses ones attention. Utterly imperceivable is not, I suggest, everyone's experience; there are those who see more clearly and expansively.

I don't wish to assert what is true for another. Don't get the wrong idea that I actually believe what I'm writing..... They are not true to me, just like every other thought perceived.


Might I ask what is true for you? Given that, if I understand correctly, despite claiming a lack of beliefs, you believe your thoughts are untrue, or at least unbelievable. And you believe you are unable to perceive your true nature, that which is beyond thought and the delusion of physicality? That may well be true for you currently, but I wonder where it leaves you, other than looking at it as an unfathomable mystery. What, if anything, is left? And how much fun is it?

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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby randomguy » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:57 pm

Hi Smiiley. I read your enjoyably poetic post a few times with the intention of really hearing what you are saying. I found it clever and thoughtful and with and intention to share a lovely perspective. Nonetheless, I didn't hear a click and I don't know what the oposing ideas equalling eachother is all about. So I'll blah blah about opposing ideas below

If you take the idea of "real" from the word reality (from the question that titles this thread) and it's opposite "unreal" it just seems like nothing at all to equate them. I don't get what is there. Yet, what is of interest in my perspective is what precedes ideas. That which notices the sense of "I am", that is, whatever is perceiving the basest sense of existence seems to me intuitively less like both real and unreal and more like neither real or unreal as the ideas themselves are small in comparison to the infinite unknowable potential of This. Not that that means anything important.

If I may use an anology, ideas are like the shapes in the smoke of a fire while awareness is the fire, the smoke, the air, the nothing, all of it.
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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby randomguy » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:58 pm

Hello IanB
Might I ask what is true for you?

I am. This is.

Can I know what this is? Seems I cannot. If I could, would I choose to go back to fooling myself that I can? Definitely not.
Is it fun? Fun doesn't describe enough the appreciation for being and the wonder/marvel that this existence even is. There is joy.

Ideas can be absolutely lovely and I totally get the love affair we have with ideas. It's just that they can be taken very seriously and coincide with the experience of being crushed in suffering as they can be nightmares as well. Which is why I resonate with an explanation WW has given along the lines of xyz is this way because it is what is wanted or preferred. To take it a bit further, my experience is that the wanting so to speak to see what is true above all other ideas and fears is somehow important in noticing a seeing that is free of identification with thought. And it goes the other way it seems, if one wants to see a world of people composed of beliefs complete with self-contradictory bone-heads posting on a web forum, then guess what is seen. But that which is not founded on thought and belief is much quieter.

My certainty is not founded in beliefs. The experience of thoughts for me is much much lighter than a time when they were taken seriously. My certainty is intuitive in nature and founded in the realization that there is only This, that this cannot be known and the undeniable sense that it is as it is, perceived good and bad, through and through, would have it no other way, as to want it so would be to struggle and for what? To see less clearly by holding to an untrue thought? It's like all thoughts have all been demoted in seriousness and are immediately negated upon arrival. Beliefs just don't stick in that environment and life is much lighter without them.
Last edited by randomguy on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby karmarider » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:30 pm

I don't see much of a difference in what people are saying here. The difference is in the emphasis.

The mechanics of the mind are the mechanics of the mind. Thoughts, emotions, beliefs, delusions and all mental constructs happen. That's not to say they are random. But they are compelled in the sense that the conditioning in the mind will influence what happens in the mind. I don't think there is any volition in the mind--but that's a pretty controversial subject here, and can be put aside for this discussion. But we can agree that conditioning will affect mental constructs including beliefs.

The conditioning goes beyond influencing beliefs. I think it in fact is a compulsion. In other words, what we believe and want to believe, we do not really have a choice in. But we do seem to have a choice in controlling attention. It seems we can influence the entire vessel in which all this happens.

If this accepted, there are at least two approaches. One is the movement to make our thoughts and beliefs sweeter. We can make our beliefs more positive, sweeter, more inclusive, more spiritual, more compassionate, more open, more helpful, and so on.

And, why wouldn't we want this? Why wouldn't we want a more positive and sweeter life? Beliefs affect the experience of life and positive beliefs bring about a more positive outcome of life, so why wouldn't we want that?

Well, because in my experience, it takes tremendous effort to make thoughts and beliefs more positive. It takes conscious effort and continual practice to sustain positivity through beliefs. And who has not had the experience of false beliefs? Who has not had the experience of ardently believing something, and then later come to the experience that, well, maybe that was not quite it?

It's not that beliefs are random, and it's not that beliefs cannot be made sweeter, and it's not that beliefs cannot reflect truth, and it's not even that beliefs do not affect the experience of life. All of this can be true.

And yet, there is something prior to beliefs which has a greater influence.

In my experience, at our basest and most natural, we are already abundantly positive. How can we not be? The gift of life, the gift of simply being aware is huge.

What is negative in us starts as a delusion of fear. A delusion. A belief.

Ian pointed out Anita Moorjani. I don't usually follow NDE, but I like what she says, and I like that she is not trying to promote any particular belief system, and I see what she is says as essentially that we don't see who we are because of an illusion. It's not that our beliefs are not sweet enough; it's that what we do believe is based in fear.
"Thinking positive" can be tiring, and to some people it can mean "suppressing" the negative stuff that happens. And it ends up being more draining.


This is how I see the approach toward reaching for positive beliefs. But that's just me--it would be hard to dissuade anyone who is trying for a better perspective and better experience of life. This is what we all want.

I prefer the other approach. It's certainly not easier. To reach in and bring to consciousness the original fear, and in the seeing of it destroy the delusion--well maybe that's not easier. But in the seeing of it, no practice or subsequent conscious effort is required.
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Re: Do your thoughts create reality?

Postby runstrails » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:15 pm

Very interesting discussion. Thanks everyone. I'm glad that you brought up Anita Moorjani. I just finished reading her book and its a longer version of the NDE which is posted on this site. I enjoyed it.

Randomguy, (nice post, btw)--when you say " This is it". Does that include the other realms and expanded awareness that Anita Moorjani and other NDE survivors tell us about? For example, she saw her past, present and future taking place simultaneously, had and out of body experience with expanded consciousness and similar things. Or would you say that these are simply more experiences and hence illusory or not real or maya (I think you know what I mean here)? Does abiding in/as 'I AM' effectively negate the need for experiences that allow your consciousness to evolve?

WW--(nice post too), if one can find and reside in the core "I AMness" in this human life--then would be the point of evolution of consciousness through this lifetime and perhaps others?

NDE experiences appear to suggest using this human life to evolve appropriately to the next 'level' of existence. On the other hand, non-duality (Vedanta) suggests bypassing all of the levels of evolution/existence/experience by getting to the core 'I AM'. I sort of vacillate between both points of view. Anyway, I'm enjoying the discussion and would love your point of view on these thoughts.
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