Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

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rachMiel
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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by rachMiel » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:53 pm

samadhi wrote:The real question here rachMeil is - are YOU real or are you a beautiful fairy tale? And if the latter is true, then a fairy tale told to who and by whom? ;)
I'd say it depends on what YOU/ME you mean.

The rachMiel ego (small self) is a fairy tale, fer sure fer sure ... and a compelling one at that (for rachMiel, in any case). Who tells it? rachMiel's mind/brain. To whom? rachMiel's mind/brain and a few minds/brains in the world.

The rachMiel Self (with a capital S) is (perhaps*) not a fairy tale. That Self isn't even rachMiel, except as a name on a driver's license. That Self is The Big Self = Consciousness = All That Is = Brahman = __________________ (fill in the blank with your favorite absolutism).

* I'm still workin' on this one. ;-)
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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by samadhi » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:46 pm

rachMiel wrote:
samadhi wrote:The real question here rachMeil is - are YOU real or are you a beautiful fairy tale? And if the latter is true, then a fairy tale told to who and by whom? ;)
I'd say it depends on what YOU/ME you mean.

The rachMiel ego (small self) is a fairy tale, fer sure fer sure ... and a compelling one at that (for rachMiel, in any case). Who tells it? rachMiel's mind/brain. To whom? rachMiel's mind/brain and a few minds/brains in the world.

The rachMiel Self (with a capital S) is (perhaps*) not a fairy tale. That Self isn't even rachMiel, except as a name on a driver's license. That Self is The Big Self = Consciousness = All That Is = Brahman = __________________ (fill in the blank with your favorite absolutism).

* I'm still workin' on this one. ;-)
Making perfect sense to me :) The really good answers depend on the really good questions

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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:51 am

Rach said:
SandyJoy wrote:
"Look outside at the trees, the bees, the garden filled with new green leaves. Look across the way at the buildings and the people there. See the simple sparrow on the sidewalk; the soaring swallow in the sky. There is no value there either, no matter how much you believe otherwise. There is no power or importance there, even though common sense and individual intellect scream otherwise."
This reminds me a bit of what one of my favorite messengers once said to me when I was bemoaning the fact that, in this earthly realm, life eats life. (I feel sorrow when an ant dies; the reality of one beautiful creature killing/eating another is a toughie for me.)

Marge said to me that my problem was I was too attached to the ephemeral life forms: this ant, that sparrow, etc. That instead of seeing it as a series of individual sufferings/tragedies, one could see it as an ongoing flow of risings/fallings within the larger framework of ... existence/IS-ness/Consciousness.
I can help with this one Rach... grieve not the changing of the form, bless the form while it IS as it is, commune in harmony and there is nothing to miss as all things are perfect now. Even the husk of the body of an ant reminds us of the preciousness of this moment, as all there is, all there eternally is.

And it is perfect, as it is.

Life breeds life.

Whether we return to dust or to ash all 'matter' contributes to regeneration of form in varying density and placement in the ecosystem by combinations. Follow the continual journey of that carrot you ate last night from its past to its future it is eternal, but was noticed by you for only a moment. - Did you bless it, appreciate it, be one with it as your two paths met?

Did you appreciate the ant husks that filtered into the soil that gave it its mineral contents? It's not just the esoteric that is eternal, the physical never 'disappears' either. No thing goes to 'waste'.

That's the love that Sandy has in aware appreciation - love is the equilibrium of generosity and gratitude - (Don Miguel Ruiz)
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by rachMiel » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:44 am

Nice, Jen. :-)

life eats life <---> life breeds life

I don't know why, but my heart gets so easily broken when I see an animal suffer. Pretty much any animal. It's a big emotional Achilles' heel, gets me all sorts of discombobulated, sometimes for a long period of time. It's so powerful (like a sledge hammer to the gut/heart) and inexplicable -- it's not as if I grew up surrounded by and/or in love with animals -- that, if I were inclined to believe in reincarnation*, I'd say the emotional reflex comes from an experience in a past life, residual karma.

* Verdict's still out for me. :-)
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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by SandyJoy » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:25 am

rachMiel wrote:Nice, Jen. :-)

life eats life <---> life breeds life

I don't know why, but my heart gets so easily broken when I see an animal suffer. Pretty much any animal. It's a big emotional Achilles' heel, gets me all sorts of discombobulated, sometimes for a long period of time. It's so powerful (like a sledge hammer to the gut/heart) and inexplicable -- it's not as if I grew up surrounded by and/or in love with animals -- that, if I were inclined to believe in reincarnation*, I'd say the emotional reflex comes from an experience in a past life, residual karma.

* Verdict's still out for me. :-)
Don't try to squelch that, that is your Heart, that is Love, that is The Child of you, the Soul of You, the part of you that is the Knowing One, the transcendent Self, the Light that is everywhere at once, the One True Heart, don't lose That inner Guide --Let it be, trust yourself, love who you are---I can see from all your posts, what gentle soul--the Beauty of your Heart is seen, and the Child of you is the innocent, pure heart, and Yes it is the vulnerable and exposed and tender--It the Sweet Soul of us, the part of us that touches the hem of God's Robe ---the exposed one who finds this a pretty rough time in the world of time-form-matter. But don't try to cover that Light of You---Be brave---Let it be exposed----This is Love and It is what you will take you when you leave this world---Love--the Pure Heart of You--the Child Self that God knows and Loves greatly--who you are before the world of time.

Be the Love that knows the Fairy Tales are real---because you know Fairy Tales are Beautiful---and everything that is Beautiful is Real and let your Heart be you--It knows that tender child who cares about the little bugs and feels the ancient soul of an old forest and sees the smile upon the flowers face---That Is you, that is your soul, the part of you that has not forgotten Who he Is---Remember-- That is the Real you and he is the Child of God--and the little boy of, he knows he once lived there in heaven where nothing was hurt or harmed-- It is true---and Here in the world, even with its images upon images, the Fairy Tales are Real and they do come true.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by Xan » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:25 pm

Brahman: Real ... or (beautiful) fairy tale?

And, perhaps more importantly: Can your take be convincingly, reasonably proven? Or is it a leap of faith?
Knowing Brahman... the formless infinite foundation of all existence... is neither by reason or faith, but only by intimate and direct awareness in It.

How? Notice the silent open space within and all around you and let go into That.

~ ~

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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:16 pm

I don't know why, but my heart gets so easily broken when I see an animal suffer. Pretty much any animal. It's a big emotional Achilles' heel, gets me all sorts of discombobulated, sometimes for a long period of time. It's so powerful (like a sledge hammer to the gut/heart) and inexplicable -- it's not as if I grew up surrounded by and/or in love with animals -- that, if I were inclined to believe in reincarnation*, I'd say the emotional reflex comes from an experience in a past life, residual karma.
Rach, I was just outside getting some sunshine, and a magpie that frequents the garden, flew onto a fence right beside me. I said 'good morning' before I even noticed she had a wiggling tiny lizard in her beak that I only saw when she turned her head in my direction when I spoke. So then I said 'good morning lizard, not such a great morning for you though'. (reality). The magpie mother's 'child' flew onto the fence beside them squeaking at her mother to share the breakfast she'd caught. For a moment all of us hung there.... and in that moment there was acceptance of reality of your 'life eats life' and of my 'life breeds life'. It is what it is, the two are one.

It caused me pause to consider your response above, which I previously had been thinking about in terms of cruelty causing unnecessary suffering, rather than the nature of life in an ecosystem.

In ET speak, acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm being conscious ways of being and doing. Acceptance is peace within reality, at this moment, this is what is required of me. In that moment, I blessed the lizard in the beak of the mother without judging the mother or the impatient baby, the lizard was being a lizard, the birds were being birds; while still feeling lovingly compassionate towards the lizard that strayed out into the open path of the birds hunting ground. None of it was about 'me', none of it required anything of me in terms of action and so I didn't take it upon myself to feel response able to do any other thing or to judge any of it. I did however feel a pang of 'regret' for the lizard who moments before would have been care-less-ly lying or venturing into the warmth of the sun.

If you had grown up among animals and aware of the reality of the natural cycles of nature it might be easier for you to not judge and define things in such human terms as 'suffering' or in terms of human thinking of 'controlling' nature rather than accepting it. Where there is imposed cruelty creating unnecessary suffering however, yes one can choose to intervene.
bMany years ago now I had an 'aha' moment that kind of makes all of this okay. I was bike riding down the western shore of Loch Ness on a glorious spring day. Spring in Scotland is amazing in its awakening after the long harsh winters, all life rejuvenating so magnificently, that which was dormant awakening that which is to be born struggling into life.

I noticed a young ewe having trouble birthing her lamb. I stayed at a distance as other ewes gathered around her. That she was suffering there was no doubt, that her life and the life of her lamb were in jeopardy, probably. I knew nothing about sheep midwifery and I was on the other side of the fence from her. I kept a sort of vigil of silent encouragement and prayer, as I've now done many times since as things outside of my 'control' or 'place' were unfolding. After awhile the lamb emerged and the other ewes went even closer to the mother. I cried - warm tears of release of my holding my breath and expectations. The lamb laid still and unmoving on the grass and I waited for movement for what seemed like an eternity. Regardless of my 'wanting' or 'willing' her life was not within my power to determine. I almost want to make you wait as long as I did for the outcome ....
to understand that our perspective is only our perspective, our 'wishes' only our wishes and desires of how life 'should' be, rather than how it really is. Any suffering is in our judgement and totally inaccurate when it pertains to another.

The lamb moved! I cheered, the ewes nudged at the young mother, teaching her how to clean it off and stimulate its once crumpled up inside her body with limbs that she would have to learn - by falling over many times - to use effectively.

I watched a while longer then rode off and had a glorious ride along the loch, sat on a huge boulder for awhile pondering about my own reactions to life in all its gory/glory. On my way back I tried to identify the lamb and mother from all the other lambs and mothers but they had just blended into the flock. As I rode on I came upon a dead bird on the road and once again my heart engaged. I was still within sight of the sheep. I looked from a young lamb to the dead bird and back again. Tears fell, this magnificent, beautiful creature that once soared the heights of the skies and fed - likely on lizards, had reached the end of its time on Earth. Yes again with tears falling in love and compassion and oneness, I lifted the bird's lifeless body off the road and onto a grass verge, it was a lame attempt at 'preserving' what was left in some measure of dignity, I kind of smiled inside myself as I realised no it wouldn't get all squashed uncaringly by drivers on the road who would give its majesty of what it once was any thought or recognition at all ... and I wondered whether the other birds, animals and insects that came to eat from its flesh would either, who knows?

All I know is in acceptance it doesn't mean you are heartless, it means you are heart full. And, that's okay too.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by Mamaseeker » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:30 am

rachMiel wrote:This is from David Paul Boaz's article on Shankara.

I find it compelling for two main reasons: (1) Though Buddhism's shunyata (emptiness) and Vedanta's Brahman appear to be diametric opposites -- shunyata posits that when you chip away all that is not-real you are left with nothing, Brahman posits that you are left with (one big) everything -- they are in essence the same; (2) this corroborates what SandyJoy said, that Brahman is a "real fairy tale."

The Emptiness of Emptiness. Do the absolutes of shunyata/emptiness and
Nirguna Brahman actually exist? Are they real? Are they existing entities? Yes and no.
They do exist conventionally, nominally, conceptually. But they cannot be found under
ultimate contemplative analysis, as Absolute Truth. They exist as “relative valid
cognition” (shadma), but not as “ultimate valid cognition” (pramana). Thus they have
no ultimate, permanent essence, no essential self-nature. Therefore, they are not
ultimately, essentially intrinsically real. They are not some kind of absolute core,
substrate, or creator of arising forms. The Buddhist Middle Way Consequence School
(Madhyamaka Prasangika) refers to this truth of emptiness as the “emptiness of
emptiness.” Vedantists speak of nondual Brahman as “empty of all qualities and
attributes.” Thus Shunyata and Nirguna Brahman share the same nondual ontological
status. “Truth is One, many are its names” (Rig Veda).
I do believe that on an atomic level everything is the same. I mean everything in this universe can be reduced to it's atomic state, no? Even all the stars for that matter. So how are we any different at the microcosmic level? Is that 'Oneness' in an Objective sense?

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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by rachMiel » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:49 am

Mamaseeker wrote:I do believe that on an atomic level everything is the same. I mean everything in this universe can be reduced to it's atomic state, no? Even all the stars for that matter.
What about consciousness? Is consciousness a physical thing that can be reduced to atoms, subatomic particles, energy, etc.?
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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by Mamaseeker » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:59 am

rachMiel wrote:What about consciousness? Is consciousness a physical thing that can be reduced to atoms, subatomic particles, energy, etc.?
If you define consciousness only in terms of human consciousness, then they are mere words. Think of Universal Consciousness? Then it might make sense to say that it could be some form of energy.

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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by Mamaseeker » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:08 am

I sometimes think that what physicists call the Dark Energy which by definition is "In physical cosmology and astronomy, dark energy is a hypothetical form of energy that permeates all of space and tends to accelerate the expansion of the universe.[1] Dark energy is the most accepted hypothesis to explain observations since the 1990s that indicate that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. In the standard model of cosmology, dark energy currently accounts for 73% of the total mass–energy of the universe".

Or it could be the Dark Matter which by definition, "In astronomy and cosmology, dark matter is a type of matter hypothesized to account for a large part of the total mass in the universe. Dark matter cannot be seen directly with telescopes; evidently it neither emits nor absorbs light or other electromagnetic radiation at any significant level.[1] Instead, its existence and properties are inferred from its gravitational effects on visible matter, radiation, and the large-scale structure of the universe. Dark matter is estimated to constitute 84% of the matter in the universe and 23% of the total energy density (with almost all the rest being dark energy)".

Can't see it, touch, feel it, but you know its there everywhere. What else fits that description?? Brahman perhaps?


What do you think?
Last edited by Mamaseeker on Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by Mamaseeker » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:15 am

Did you ever stop to think that seeking is only for humans and all other living things on this planet, as precious as the humans, are simply THAT- they are living. They don't seek, or got anything to do with consciousness. They just are there because they are IT, perhaps? Does that make any sense? I can sometimes talk nonsense :)

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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by rachMiel » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:33 am

Mamaseeker wrote:Can't see it, touch, feel it, but you know its there everywhere. What else fits that description?? Brahman perhaps?

What do you think?
I think thinking about Brahman is an oxymoron (that I engage in way too often). ;-)
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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by Mamaseeker » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:36 am

rachMiel wrote:
Mamaseeker wrote:Can't see it, touch, feel it, but you know its there everywhere. What else fits that description?? Brahman perhaps?

What do you think?
I think thinking about Brahman is an oxymoron (that I engage in way too often). ;-)
I can see THAT, YOU are the Brahman :wink:

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Re: Brahman: Real or (Beautiful) Fairy Tale?

Post by rachMiel » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:37 am

Mamaseeker wrote:Did you ever stop to think that seeking is only for humans and all other living things on this planet, as precious as the humans, are simply THAT- they are living. They don't seek, or got anything to do with consciousness. They just are there because they are IT, perhaps? Does that make any sense? I can sometimes talk nonsense :)
The creature gazes into openness with all
its eyes. But our eyes are
as if they were reversed, and surround it,
everywhere, like barriers against its free passage.
We know what is outside us from the animal’s
face alone: since we already turn
the young child round and make it look
backwards at what is settled, not that openness
that is so deep in the animal’s vision. Free from death.
We alone see that: the free creature
has its progress always behind it,
and God before it, and when it moves, it moves
in eternity, as streams do.

Rilke, from the Eighth Duino Elegy
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