There is no external world

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There is no external world

Postby goran » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:17 pm

What people aren't getting, and thus a major reason why they're completely stuck in their search, is that there is no world external to perceptions. When they hear something like "All there is, is consciousness", they proceed to interpret that as if consciousness is some magical force that operates within the universe. What you need to realize is that there is no universe at all, period. There is no space nor time, and thus no atoms, cells, neurons or any matter at all. All of that is entirely imaginary. When you fully realize this, you will realize that there is no you.

And so, I've written a article refuting the external world step by step, but it is too long to post here, so i'll link to it:

http://www.uncoveringlife.com/refuting- ... nal-world/

I think you'll find it enlightening.
http://www.uncoveringlife.com – Enlightenment Starts Here
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Re: There is no external world

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:35 pm

goran wrote:When you fully realize this, you will realize that there is no you.

This concept of 'no you' comes from a misunderstanding of what you are. You do exist, you just don't recognize it because of that misunderstanding. You do exist or the endless discussions on this issue could not take place. There are plenty of topics on the subject in this forum. Feel free to read them. But before you argue any further on there being 'no you', be kind enough to define, in a clear and concise way, this non-existent you that you refer to. After all, if you are going to claim that in the presence of conscious beingness, that there is nothing uniquely self-aware in that beingness, in spite of the direct sense that there is, you must then be explicit in this description of non-existence. Who, or what, has made this claim? And who, or what, is disputing it?

Note: if you have to refer to some other text for your definition, it simply means you don't understanding it on your own merits. Please do not quote on the subject as the author in reference is not here to explain.

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Re: There is no external world

Postby Blenderhead » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:31 pm

I trust my senses more than my mind. My senses tell me that the universe exists :)
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Re: There is no external world

Postby ashley72 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:24 pm

There is definitely some-thing external to our perceptions. The question is more about what structure does it take.

Is matter in the form of a point-particle or is it more interconnected like a wave structure (Aether).... this is the big mystery remaining in quantum theory. The reason it's a mystery is because fundamental so called "particles" are so small. The radius of an electron is around 2.8 x 10^-15 m which is too small to see with our naked eye.

The question to ask is how does energy exchange occur in our universe? How would a discrete particle like an electron communicate or exchange energy with other discrete particles. The only plausible answer is via a wave structure. The particle-wave duality theory is completely counter-intuitive which is why so many lay-people or natural thinkers have an issue with it.

Check out http://www.matterwaves.info for more information on a wave structure of matter.
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Re: There is no external world

Postby boogeyman » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:58 am

I remember ET replying to someones question about the existence of the external world. It kinda stuck with me because Tolle rarely goes into deep philosophical type existential question as they don't really help anyone, and he's advice is usually more "practical".
He said that in he's own experience, when you go deep enough, ultimately there is nothing at all. That all of existence is nothingness. Drawing from this, I think the "true self" might also be form of illusion, just to a lesser degree when compared to the little "me" inside the head.
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Re: There is no external world

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:25 am

boogeyman wrote:I think the "true self" might also be form of illusion,


Have you considered who are what is having the illusion, and what does this illusioner perceive when not having an illusion?

Maybe the 'true self' is not an illusion but rather a Perspective of/within Source Consciousness, uniquely replicated infinite times - like a Divine Hologram perceiving and exploring its own being and potential.

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Re: There is no external world

Postby randomguy » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:02 am

I take goran's wording that there is no external word as another way of saying there is no world separate from one's self. I read a bit of the site and it appears to me an account of investigation indicative of a willingness of one to see for one's self the nature of one's self and I like what he says.
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Re: There is no external world

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:58 am

randomguy wrote:I take goran's wording that there is no external word as another way of saying there is no world separate from one's self. I read a bit of the site and it appears to me an account of investigation indicative of a willingness of one to see for one's self the nature of one's self and I like what he says.

Maybe, but when he makes such a contradiction in his first post...
goran wrote:There is no space nor time, and thus no atoms, cells, neurons or any matter at all. All of that is entirely imaginary. When you fully realize this, you will realize that there is no you...

...I think you'll find it enlightening.
[emphasis added]

...while offering an 'enlightening' experience, I think he owes a little more clarity on the 'you' that fully realizes, and the 'you' that will find enlightenment, compared to the 'you' that doesn't exist. I don't think it's at all unexplainable, but I'd like to hear his understanding of the distinction.

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Re: There is no external world

Postby goran » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:09 am

goran wrote:When you fully realize this, you will realize that there is no you...

...I think you'll find it enlightening.
[emphasis added]


This only seems contradictory if there is the belief that there are persons. What really happens is that the realization arises that the apparent person is not actual, but an impersonal appearance in consciousness. In the absence of the belief in personhood, there is no problem talking in terms of "you'll realize..." since when speaking we are adopting a artificial dualistic context in where persons, coffee mugs and yankee stadium exist. In other words, if you are to talk about anything, you can talk about you's and me's because as soon as you open your mouth, you are talking about the dream state in which such imaginary objects seemingly (but not actually) exist.
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Re: There is no external world

Postby ashley72 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:28 am

randomguy wrote:I take goran's wording that there is no external word as another way of saying there is no world separate from one's self. I read a bit of the site and it appears to me an account of investigation indicative of a willingness of one to see for one's self the nature of one's self and I like what he says.


no read carefully...he said....

Goran wrote:There is no space nor time, and thus no atoms, cells, neurons or any matter at all. All of that is entirely imaginary. When you fully realize this, you will realize that there is no you.


IMO, there is certainly a world full of perceivable things.... because we perceive them and label them as such. However, what we don't know is the structure of ALL these perceivable things we label. Are the building blocks of the Universe (atoms, electrons etc) made from wave-like structures or are they discreet in nature. If the Universe is a wave-like structure we're not actually separate & discreet things.... we're interconnected and more unified.

Goran wrote:All of that is entirely imaginary. When you fully realize this, you will realize that there is no you.


If I'm reading you correctly, you're trying to say there is a perceived you... but the separation from perceived others is an "illusion" or imaginary because of the limitation of human perception. In other words, humans don't have the natural ability to see that the universe of things is actually a massive wave-like structure... or binary universe.
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Re: There is no external world

Postby randomguy » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:49 pm

I just thought some writing on the site reflected a willingness of self-exploration that's all. But you're suggestions for clarification is a good one as it is introduced above as medicine as well one I "need". So, more than fair enough.
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Re: There is no external world

Postby randomguy » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:11 pm

Ash, that's interesting about the wavelike structure that you mention that accounts for no separateness. I had a fascination for a while with superstring theory which describes something similar to what you are talking about, that at the smallest explorable level there are (theorized to be) vibrations in x number of dimensions, and it seems to get less and less thing-like as you observe for lack of a better word "down" that way. What strikes me as an interesting question in this is this; that which observes the thing-ness, the structure, that which experiences this observation and observes experience itself, is that a thing or structure in an of itself that is perceivable and can that question even be answered with a certainty, a certainty that isn't itself an experience observed?
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Re: There is no external world

Postby randomguy » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:14 pm

goran wrote:This only seems contradictory if there is the belief that there are persons. What really happens is that the realization arises that the apparent person is not actual, but an impersonal appearance in consciousness. In the absence of the belief in personhood, there is no problem talking in terms of "you'll realize..." since when speaking we are adopting a artificial dualistic context in where persons, coffee mugs and yankee stadium exist. In other words, if you are to talk about anything, you can talk about you's and me's because as soon as you open your mouth, you are talking about the dream state in which such imaginary objects seemingly (but not actually) exist.

The arising realization, what is that?
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Re: There is no external world

Postby goran » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:18 pm

randomguy wrote:
goran wrote:This only seems contradictory if there is the belief that there are persons. What really happens is that the realization arises that the apparent person is not actual, but an impersonal appearance in consciousness. In the absence of the belief in personhood, there is no problem talking in terms of "you'll realize..." since when speaking we are adopting a artificial dualistic context in where persons, coffee mugs and yankee stadium exist. In other words, if you are to talk about anything, you can talk about you's and me's because as soon as you open your mouth, you are talking about the dream state in which such imaginary objects seemingly (but not actually) exist.

The arising realization, what is that?


I just wanna be clear that when I use the term "realize" in this context, I am not talking about what is sometimes referred to as "self-realization". Here, I am talking about a knowing on a intellectual level. However, this intellectual realization plants a seed of destruction, which may eventually grow into a full blown Realization with a capital R, which is beyond the level of the mind, and is what everybody is really looking for.
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Re: There is no external world

Postby boogeyman » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:14 am

Webwanderer wrote:
boogeyman wrote:I think the "true self" might also be form of illusion,


Have you considered who are what is having the illusion, and what does this illusioner perceive when not having an illusion?

Maybe the 'true self' is not an illusion but rather a Perspective of/within Source Consciousness, uniquely replicated infinite times - like a Divine Hologram perceiving and exploring its own being and potential.

WW


I'm not trying to refute consciousness here....
What I'm trying to say is that maybe the "true self" isn't the ultimate refined state of consciousness. There might be different layers of consciousness still beyond that.

If you believe in an after life and/or the near death experiences stories etc. Supposedly the soul still has a sense of self. After death the soul doesn't instantly meld with some universal consciousness, but it progresses gradually to a more unified state.
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