Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

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Nyseto
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Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by Nyseto » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm

So I was describing the nature of awareness how it is infinite and we overlook it for the content which makes it appear to be finite. After I explained that to him, he said that it's dangerous psychological mysticism. I explained to him that you are God. Since awareness is infinite and the common name for it is "I" and God is infinite, therefore you are God. Not God as in something all powerful but God as in absolutely nothing, pure awareness. He asked me how I know and I asked him, are you not aware right now? Have you ever found any beginning or end to awareness? See for yourself, experientially.

Now when I looked at the definition of mysticism is the belief that a direct connection can be made with God through sitting and thinking or meditation. But the experience of being aware is self evident requiring no meditation or thinking. How can you be connected to something that is already you? Connection implies relationship. He was saying how just because God works through him, it doesn't mean he is God. But I told him that from the perspective of God, there is no object he works through, there is only himself as himself.

How would you explain to someone pure awareness without giving them a reason to dismiss it as mysticism bs?

Or better yet, is infinite awareness considered mystisicm?
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:23 pm

Nyseto wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm
How would you explain to someone pure awareness without giving them a reason to dismiss it as mysticism bs?
For those inclined to hold scripture as truthful, or even God based spirituality, the exploration of the 'Oneness of God' may be useful. Another way to consider Oneness of God is to break it down into component parts. These parts are Omniscience, Omnipresence, and Omnipotence. Or all-knowing, all- presence, and all-powerful.

If there is truth in these teachings, then their can be nothing outside of them... Or it's simply not 'all'. So either God is indeed one, which would include all of us as extensions or elements of that eternal Beingness, or it's not true to begin with.

Quantum physics is shedding a lot of 'light' on this relationship these days. The smaller you look, the more everything turns out to be just intelligent energy.

WW

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Re: Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by Nyseto » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:04 pm

I see what you're saying but many people especially Christians dismiss it all as new age or mystical bs. But in my opinion, there is mystisicm because there is ignorance. To someone who hasn't seen that they are much bigger than they think, it someone else who has is labeled as a mystic who deludes themselves. If our minds could know everything there would be no mystisicm. If being spontaneous or innocent is mystical, then so be it. That would just mean kids are natural mystics.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:18 am

There's nothing in my post above that has anything to do with mysticism. It's mostly conventional religious teachings looked at in its most fundamental context. Scriptures from multiple religions, including Christianity, speak often of the Oneness of God. The three Omni's also came out of long standing religious teachings. The recognition of how it relates to our relationship with that One God is just a logical conclusion.

The quantum physics aspect is quite recent, but it's firmly based in science. There is nothing mystical about any of it.

WW

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Re: Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by turiya » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:32 am

Nyseto wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm
But I told him that from the perspective of God, there is no object he works through, there is only himself as himself.
Just out of curiosity, what did he say when you told him this?
Nyseto wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm
Or better yet, is infinite awareness considered mystisicm?
The way I see it: Christianity indirectly points to Mysticism. And Mysticism directly points to the essence of everything (i.e. Infinite Awareness).

:wink:
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by Nyseto » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:30 pm

turiya wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:32 am
Nyseto wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm
But I told him that from the perspective of God, there is no object he works through, there is only himself as himself.
Just out of curiosity, what did he say when you told him this?
Nyseto wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:26 pm
Or better yet, is infinite awareness considered mystisicm?
The way I see it: Christianity indirectly points to Mysticism. And Mysticism directly points to the essence of everything (i.e. Infinite Awareness).

:wink:
When I told him that from the perspective of God that there is only himself, he said yeah but I'm still limited here in time and space. There is only a piece of God or the infinite working through me but I am not that. So I tried a different angle to point him to direct experience instead of debating him on his concepts. I told him "Look, you're here and you're aware, you can't deny that. Can you find a beginning or end to awareness?" He asked me, aware of what though? I told him, "Aware of being aware. The only way to be aware of being aware is to be it. You can't be aware of awareness like you can with an object." So he asked me, what happens after you die then? I replied, "Death is only the stripping away of everything that's not you." He then asked me another question, "if you believe this stuff about awareness and whatnot, why is it so hard for you to believe that God is the creator?" And again I replied, "Because one is a story and the other is direct experience. Why believe when you can experience?"

How do you define mystisicm?
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by Nyseto » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:35 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:18 am
There's nothing in my post above that has anything to do with mysticism. It's mostly conventional religious teachings looked at in its most fundamental context. Scriptures from multiple religions, including Christianity, speak often of the Oneness of God. The three Omni's also came out of long standing religious teachings. The recognition of how it relates to our relationship with that One God is just a logical conclusion.

The quantum physics aspect is quite recent, but it's firmly based in science. There is nothing mystical about any of it.

WW
How do you define mystisicm?

I don't understand how someone can say that it is mystisicm to abide as pure awareness. When I think of mystisicm, I think of the beyond, the divine. But awareness is both divine and not divine at the same time. It can be mystical because it's infinite, but it's a very ordinary infinite. As a halfway stage, it's both ordinary and extraordinary, and then in the end, it's neither...it just is.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:30 pm

Nyseto wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:35 pm
I don't understand how someone can say that it is mystisicm to abide as pure awareness. When I think of mystisicm, I think of the beyond, the divine. But awareness is both divine and not divine at the same time. It can be mystical because it's infinite, but it's a very ordinary infinite. As a halfway stage, it's both ordinary and extraordinary, and then in the end, it's neither...it just is.
I think you make both sides or the discussion quite well. It's all a matter of context. To the degree one does not understand the basic unity of life and being in all its levels of expression, it appears to be mystical. The more one understands that the distinction is just uniquely defined perception, the more it tends to be ordinary to its overall context.

A made up analogy: If one spent their entire life in one room of a house, without any knowledge or awareness of the larger structure, rumors and claims of additional rooms in which beings live and interact, might be consider as mystical. There would be no direct evidence. But when that one gets hold of a blueprint of the larger structure, and maybe peers through a previously unknown door into another room for a moment, the rest of the residence becomes less mystical and more real. As you say, ordinary. Just part of the larger landscape.

What is mysticism? Information on life generally unknown.

WW

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Re: Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by Nyseto » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:31 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:30 pm
Nyseto wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:35 pm
I don't understand how someone can say that it is mystisicm to abide as pure awareness. When I think of mystisicm, I think of the beyond, the divine. But awareness is both divine and not divine at the same time. It can be mystical because it's infinite, but it's a very ordinary infinite. As a halfway stage, it's both ordinary and extraordinary, and then in the end, it's neither...it just is.
I think you make both sides or the discussion quite well. It's all a matter of context. To the degree one does not understand the basic unity of life and being in all its levels of expression, it appears to be mystical. The more one understands that the distinction is just uniquely defined perception, the more it tends to be ordinary to its overall context.

A made up analogy: If one spent their entire life in one room of a house, without any knowledge or awareness of the larger structure, rumors and claims of additional rooms in which beings live and interact, might be consider as mystical. There would be no direct evidence. But when that one gets hold of a blueprint of the larger structure, and maybe peers through a previously unknown door into another room for a moment, the rest of the residence becomes less mystical and more real. As you say, ordinary. Just part of the larger landscape.

What is mysticism? Information on life generally unknown.

WW
Alright so then get this. When talking to someone about awareness, you have two options on how to tailor your responses based on the point they are trying to make. So if they say we are limited, etc. You mention awareness in a mystical way to give way to the infinite for them. Now if they argue that awareness is a bunch of mumbo jumbo mystical bs, you then mention the ordinariness of awareness instead lol.

See the problem with science is religion is that they're both narrow since they are byproducts of imagination. That's why they are always in conflict because each one is arguing one side onlythe practical side and the other the mystical side so it makes it easy for people to shut down and not remain open. But awareness can take either the mystical side or practical side since it's actually neither at the end of the day.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Person I spoke with said pure awareness is just psychological mystisicm and new age bs?

Post by tchest77 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:28 am

Wow, great conversation!

Your question: "How would you explain to someone pure awareness without giving them a reason to dismiss it as mysticism bs?"

Another will dismiss this due to a possibility of many reasons. If you are trying to prove to them a point, but they really aren't open to listening, then there's no point in trying as this then becomes about something else other than an open genuine let's learn about each other in a healthy conversation.

However, let's say they are open to this discussion, then this is to allow the conversation to flow as an opportunity to learn about why he would disagree with your concepts, and why you'd agree to make sense of his concepts. Anything else negates the larger reason of sharing, however we are talking about a genuine heart to heart open dialogue that relies on an open interpretation to explore further understanding. So, given this, then this equal exchange of openness could allow opportunity to explore practicing each perspective. Considering your perspective, after sharing each others ideas, teaching someone with an experiential approach that there is pure awareness in each of us could be a next best approach. Hands-on experience is by far one of the most influential experiences anyone can have because it's now not something they know, but it's something they experienced.

So, going into teaching, practice together coming into awareness. Focus on the breath, focus on the heart beat, focus on the fact that you can literally pay attention to any part of your body, what is this focus, what is this existence, you know the teachings.... this is a good way to help another to experience what you now.

What you know is such a beautiful thing, it's not something that can just be discussed, but can actually be experienced, this is what makes it so amazing, you can actually come into the realization of your own existence, energy, being, ect. But, of course, given the healthy discussion, anything outside of this will not lend even a consideration towards what could possibly be the truth, as the one this comes from must be a willing participant.

Moving forwards, the only way to allow such an experience to occur within another and within the conversation, is to see if they are a willing participant in the equal exchange, if they are not then all you can do is be a good listener and maybe they'll change their mind to decide to learn more, otherwise not much more you can do. Allowing another to decide what is right for them is one of the most important aspects of self growth. And, let's not forget, although you may want to help get another person to understand what you understand, you can also allow yourself to understand what another understands. Considering if they are willing to practice what coming into awareness is, would you then be willing to pray to their God, or to learn in an experiential way what he is explaining?

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